White smoke

[kuntzie]

do u have alot of shafy play in the turbo ... start there.. when my turbo blew it was oil though the exhaust... white smoke ad lots of itand yes oil bubbled betwqeen the downpipe and turbo

[Invasion1]

Ok Peeps lets keep it civil

all about the Facts concerning tcristea's problem....

otherwise im gonna shut'er down

thanks

Dave

[kuntzie]

also change ur o2 sensor when u get ur turbo rebuild.. mine looked terrible after mine blew ... i just replace it today

[GangstGP]

I was just trying to point out that oil and coolant can cook on to a surface and not saying it will never come off, but it turns into a very hard carbon plate or glaze on the journal bearing and/or bubble up and harden. coolant crystalizes in there and blocks it up too. I know this because I am a deli cook and use a natural gas heated griddle to cook burgers. when we clean the grill we take degreaser and a volcanic rock brick to it and scrape off the black carbon. then when the steel slab is a nice clean silver color, we take extra virgin olive oil and turn the heat on full blast and burn on several coats of oil until it has a black carbon shield on it. the shield will last 2-3 weeks and if you dont start with a good one, food will stick like crazy to the grill and will gouge the soft steel when you try and scrape it.   Heres a test to see whats going on in the turbo, drip some oil on the turbo when its real hot and see if it starts to smoke, if it does then the oil inside is smoking and bubbling too, creating a carbon shield on the bearing. ball bearings use less oil and can break up the carbon better because motor oil has detergents anyway.

[Invasion1]

Ken over at Phoenix Turbo (cheapturbo.com) called me Thursday about an update on my Spare turbo i sent them last week..

it is not in bad shape, it does have some "burnt" spots on the bearing surfaces......from the previous owner not allowing for spool down and cool down time.

the oil seals were blown out he also mentioned (that was what was listed in the ebay auction when i bought it on there) he said for journal bearing turbo's he said under 30PSI is to little and over 50PSI is to much...ball bearing turbo's even less PSI range.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/


anyway all i needed was a basic rebuild $300

as for Coolant leaks he said the T25 cores are kinda a weak spot for these units....including tempermental oil seals.

there is a turbine seal upgrade Skalor is familiar with as he posted it on W-body a few months back now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T2-T25-T28-Turbo-Stagger-Gap-Turbine-Shaft-Seal_W0QQitemZ8043598512QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The T25 does have a casting flaw that in time all turbines will have the hairline cracks beginning around the W/G port and expanding from there....

from what i have been reading and heard from Ken in our discussions that with this casting flaw and NOT keeping the Turbo Turbine COVERED!!! your more prone to cracking due to the expansion of heat and the contraction if cooling...

The idea was with it covered with stock blanket or aftermarket your keeping the heat in and hot gas flows faster than cool.....when you have no covering and the engine is off the turbine cools at a set rate determined by the underhood temps and the rate of cooling less the insulation/blanket.

With the Blanket or turbine insulation the turbine stays warm after shut down and cools at a slower rate minimizing the expantion and contraction and this less prone to the cracking that comes along with Castings.

I guess there can be an argument to the opposite claiming that a covered turbo heats up from cold to fast and then can cause the cracks...... :icon_neutral: but i have not SEEN any info on that. and im gonna look for some theorys.

As is now my spare turbo was a brand new Garrett unit the dude i got it from off ebay purchased for over $800 he claimed.....he had to much oil pressure and blew the seals out.....being a new unit it has a MINT turbine housing NO CRACKS or nothing!!! :icon_eek:

when i get it back from service it will be fully rebuilt and with a Ceramic coated Turbine  :icon_cool: and i DO plan on putting a DEI Universal Turbo Blanket kit on it as reccomended my a pro.  :icon_mrgreen:

my 5 cents

[GangstGP]

I hear ya on the gasses going a little faster when the pipe is hot, do you think thats going to give you more boost or something? What about the residual heat that heat soaks the whole area there and even transfers heat to the tranny and fuel lines and brake cyl.? wouldnt the blanket block some of that air transfered heat from flowing down under the car or out the louvers? If your turbo has a plate on it that says Genuine Garrett Remanufactured then he aint lying, they cost $1000, so yea over $800

[Invasion1]

no i don't expect more "boost" from that and if you do i think you need a WAY better setup than what we currently have stock on these cars.... :icon_lol:

it may be possable in more developed engines and such but not these timepieces  :laugh:

well in my case i have the crossover wrapped and will have the turbo turbine wrapped.....my reason is o eliminate the radiant heat issue im having....which has melted some stuff on me (also i have no hood louvers). Nothing to do with performance and boost gains. and from what i mentioned above especially i regards to the expansion and contraction of the turbine.

Im not understanding your point about the

residual heat

?? :icon_confused:

are you saying that its good or bad?

the stock Crossover has a heat shield and insulation on it....and has a turbo blanket on it stock...the way Mclaren designed them  :icon_wink:

If your turbo has a plate on it that says Genuine Garrett Remanufactured

and it does (one im having serviced now)

EDIT: has Genuine Garrett Manufactured on it actually

[GangstGP]

well when I started doin all this heat dispersal stuff a few years ago I had a piss poor running car with everything melting and overheating and not very much power. It took its toll on everything because it was my daily driver and I didnt know shit. all I had going for me was the Jeff M chip and x-over pipe. The first great step to keep things cool I did was the ac fin mod. and the "remove the windshield moulding" from the top of the engine bay mod. I had a starter blanket made of fiberglass mat covered in foil that I tailored up like a heat bonnet to block the heat from all that wiring and vac lines. PMIII took a dump then the turbo got worse to the point it was trashed. all that stuff is heat fatigue, it can ruin everything when the oil thins out on the bearing and you are grinding metal. I have taken a hundred more steps to improve the heat dispersal around the turbo. cant imagine not having louvers! I always see the wavy heat coming out the louvers thinking DAMN thats hot in there!

Did you ever consider cutting a hole in the hood and have a cowl or snorkel on that one side? you could tack some screen under the hood to keep leaves and pine needles out. the trick is to not let it get hot in the first place and let any heat generated escape rapidly. Trust me its the exact same thing as a bigger intercooler, only better because ALL radiant heat is swept away from the top of the engine. and you can brag about your american made Blackstone IC. :icon_cool:   My opinion is this car is WAY ahead of its time and because of some of the weaker engineered parts like the x-over and factory air box it has somehow gotten a bad rap. Hope this helps you hear where I am coming from, I think warm air is the enemy and if you suck in warm air from the filter in the first place, it will begin the heat soak process. a CAI is one of the most important steps to a cold charge pipe, there is the heat soak factor as well as the wind chill factor. Mclaren designed it with this in mind but forgot about the warm air from the radiater. which leads us to the conclusion about how this helps with the turbine / cartridge heat dissipation. IMHO, its not the exhaust gasses that you have no control over that are to worry about, its the metals ability to transfer heat, and the most heat transfers through the comressor wheel, agreed? Its aluminum so it pulls heat from other metals like a steel turbine housing. the colder air from the CAI is what keeps the turbine cool and the oil and water from boiling in the cartridge. 

[GangstGP]

also I ran outside and looked, the plate on the turbo says:Garrett  and ##s then says Factory Overhauled.

[Invasion1]

ZERO% chance of Cutting my HOOD  :laugh:

Ok i see what you mean now....yes thats kinda my problem now before i had the hot parts wrapped up...

I do have the underhood piece removed as of now and a timer that runs my fans for a few minutes after the ignition is turned off (not always but its switchable on/off) to keep a circulation of air under the hood.

on my Cutlass i have a enlarged hole (cause i made it bigger) behind the headlights and as long as the car is moving it gets cool(er) air, but i do plan on making a type of encloser that more ramps and prevents the hot underhood air from getting in the K&N.

For myself i have everything insulated less the exhaust manifolds, that way the radiant heat is less of a issue to components like you mentioned above.

now for sort of a heat sink i guess you could say the crossover to mount to tranny would do some....especially with a aluminum cased trans, now i have never stuck my hand down there to see if any heat from the crossover effects the transmission case at any point lower than the crossover mount (keep in mind i have a manual and my crossover mount is 1/8 the side of the auto) but i would be intrested in that theory.

Turbo wise with the blanket/wrap would mostlikely be hotter inside and after you shut the engine down it would stay hot longer than if it was "naked". but since were all well read we know to allow some cool down time before you cut the coolant flow and oil flow  :icon_wink: and for those of us with a turbo timer its especially easy  ;)

now my source on this is Ken from Phoenix turbo because we were discussing it in regards to my turbo he has now and the occurrence of some burnt areas on the journals where he said was from hot shut downs. with a 2 min cool down period he said it was enough to adequately cool and lube so when you do shut down the engine you will avoid damage.....for tohse who don't have that 2 mins well your problem down the road i guess.

my turbo timer built in to my alarm/starter is set to 2 mins from the factory....another thing i was tihnking and i have to credit my little French buddy Mars for this is maybe add a small oil cooler specificly for the turbo?? Mars has one on his S/C and hopefully it will prevent another seizure  ;)

the compressor wheel eh.....never thought of that one... :icon_neutral: that is aluminum on a steel shaft correct?  i can see how that would benefit with the cool air comming in and perhaps cool the area a bit but i have not read or heard about it so i can't comment on the validity of that, but if it is true again 2 min cool down would be needed still  :icon_mrgreen:

anyway some valid points and food for thought.

[twinturbosedan]

Trust me its the exact same thing as a bigger intercooler, only better because ALL radiant heat is swept away from the top of the engine.

the intercooler has a completely different job than hood louvers.  the job of the intercooler is to cool the intake charge after it is compressed.  hood louvers are to help let underhood heat escape the engine bay.  you can't say one is better than the other or even compare them.

and you can brag about your american made Blackstone IC. :icon_cool:   My opinion is this car is WAY ahead of its time and because of some of the weaker engineered parts like the x-over and factory air box it has somehow gotten a bad rap.

they got a well deserved bad rap becuase the stock air box and crossover pipe downright suck.  there are alot of things that could be improved on the TGP.  if you want to go faster you can't keep things stock.

Hope this helps you hear where I am coming from, I think warm air is the enemy and if you suck in warm air from the filter in the first place, it will begin the heat soak process. a CAI is one of the most important steps to a cold charge pipe there is the heat soak factor as well as the wind chill factor.

it surprises me to see that you think CAI is so important yet you say "the stock SMIC is and will always be superior to anything you try aftermarket."   i think you are seriously underestimating the job of the intercooler.  a good FMIC is going to be alot more important than CAI.  CAI does nothing to help cool the intake charge after it is compressed, which is where the intake charge is going to pick up most of it's heat.  i'm also wondering why your lower intercooler pipe is insulated?  the intake charge in that pipe is going to be alot hotter than anything underhood so there is no reason to insulate/shield it from anything underhood.  the only thing you're doing is trapping the heat inside the pipe.  i'd want as much airflow around the pipe as possible to help lose some heat before going to the intercooler.  

Mclaren designed it with this in mind but forgot about the warm air from the radiater. which leads us to the conclusion about how this helps with the turbine / cartridge heat dissipation.

there you go again, explaining things to us like you're an automotive engineer or something :icon_rolleyes:

IMHO, its not the exhaust gasses that you have no control over that are to worry about, its the metals ability to transfer heat, and the most heat transfers through the comressor wheel, agreed? Its aluminum so it pulls heat from other metals like a steel turbine housing. the colder air from the CAI is what keeps the turbine cool and the oil and water from boiling in the cartridge. 

are you talking about heat transfer from the turbine to the compressor wheel?  because that isn't where the intake charge pics up heat.  some, yes...but remember that air temperature increases when it's compressed.  that is how the intake charge pics up most of its heat.  if you didn't know that i suppose that would explain your reasoning behind your claims that no aftermarket intercooler could possibly be better than the stock SMIC, or that hood louvers are more important than intercoolers, and why you would have insulation on the lower IC pipe.

[GangstGP]

you are kinda taking things out of context there a little. If you were to do all the stuff I mentioned above it would equal a bigger IC. The lower charge pipe especially, just weld on a shield so it blocks the super hot x-over/header joint there less than 1 inch away from the pipe where it connects to the turbo there. I cant believe anyone would argue this point as I could not imagine anyone sticking there hand down in there its so hot. There is absolutely no doubt that it helped HUGE in my quest for internally cooling "wind chill". the compression of gasses only creates heat under full boost (or with warm air) and with that blanket the pipe is insulated from all the outer heat sources that by far outweigh that pipes cooling ability which is the icycoolers   :laugh: job anyway. Thats what I am trying to prove as well, to not underestimate the power of the ICYCOOLER!

[idbeast]

I have 4 TGP's and 2 TSTE's and I drive them all like I stole them... In 10 years, have never had a coolant leak in a turbo, and the only crack is the classic one between the boost bypass hole and the exhaust turbine hole, and I have worn out 4 of them (turbos that is) :icon_twisted:

[tcristea]

Back to topic   :laugh:  I replaced the turbo unit with a rebuilt and known good one and the problem did not change.  More investigation and more ripping and I now have found the problem.  There is a VERY small hole in the number one piston.  The problem with this is the engine now has metal shavings in it and is going to need a complete rebuild   :icon_eek:

My problem with this is I have replaced every sensor and power module on this thing and now I dont have the energy or resources to do this.  Any suggestions now?

[GangstGP]

I bought a parts car for $225 and got the motor and tranny out of it. it was pretty lucky I will admit and it took like 5 years to find it, but you could do something similar and put all your good parts on it.