Alky/Meth Injection

TGed · July 23, 2008, 11:36:18 AM

I know with any performance add-ons you should always tune for it.... but I would like feedback on the pros/cons of installing an alcohol/meth without tuning for it. I was thinking of using a hobbs switch to activate the pump/sprayer when x amount of boost is reached, but I don't want to tune for it just yet. I am thinking about using the injection kit because I want to up my boost pressures about 3-5 more psi. I will probably go to 104 octane first to see how the outcome is, but a meth kit is easier to come by for daily use than 5.99/gal for race fuel. I know roughly how much gain I should start with with the nozzle I plan to use, I am just more concerned with what will happen when I start spraying and how will the ecm react to it.

Sorry if everything is humble and blah. Need to get some sleep after a double shift and bar hopping. :icon_biggrin:

cobracmdr · July 23, 2008, 01:38:08 PM

If you don't want to tune it I have seen guys use a nitrous sprayer on their intercoolers to get the charge temps down with a stock intercooler. May want to consider that.

Ken

meltboy11 · July 23, 2008, 01:40:49 PM

I'm sorry... 104 octane, we can run that straight in the TGP? I would think only a mix would be safe, or are you already modded?

And I have been considering getting one of those intercoller coolers you are talking about, and you can use NO2 or CO2 with them. I was actually just reading an import tuner mag the other day and they reported a 16.8 whp gain on a 91 240sx and I have heard of bigger gains on civics and such.

TGPilot · July 23, 2008, 02:00:30 PM

I am a W/D for Snow Perfomance.

I install these kits on numerous boosted and N/A vehicles. For the money you can not go wrong! Considerable drop in charge temp. Higher octane from the Meth as well as cylinder cooling. You can go the "safe" route with a Meth kit and just dial in the pump and nozzle size to drop your AFR by 0.5-0.75 to 1 (from 12.0-12.5 AFR under boost) which will prolong engine life and allow you to turn up the boost.

Otherwise you can tune around the Meth kit to get maximum timing dialed in and turn down your fuel usage. That will mean in the end a lower consumption of fuel during WOT runs.

TGPvsTIII · July 24, 2008, 07:56:06 PM

The dodge guys are using meth to lower charge temps. some use it for adding fuel when they get their boost above 25 psi some at lower boost use it to just cool the charge. some are even running 87 octane with the meth and don't have knock. This is what I want to do with Jimmy's TGP when we put on the T3. Raise boost to 15 and shoot meth. Having a wide band installed is also a good idea. I don't think you need to register to read this section of the dodge forum I go to but check out some of the meth threads some have pictures of their kits installed http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f59/
Tim

mars · July 24, 2008, 11:56:59 PM

I run it...

alcohol water @ 50/50 mix.

It works well to cool down the intake charge. Install nozzle before the IAT sensor and it will sense cooler air and bump timing on it's own. I have mine to activate at 3 psi. quick math showd I needed a 6.1 gph nozzle and I am using a 5 gph. Keeps the inside of the engine free of carbon buildup ect... I haven't tried to tune more timing into the mix yet though. I'll do that later on.

No ill effects at all though, and it has made my AFR quite a bit richer as well. I haven't touched plug gap, and it's not snuffing out the spark at all. Still revs clean up top.

TGed · July 25, 2008, 12:07:04 AM

So far for every modification/changes that I have done are all accounted for with my current tune.
I have a wideband, aftermarket boost/vac gauge, narrow band o2 gauge and logging software (borrowing a laptop for when I need it) also a (true) walbro fuel pump and #28 injectors.
I am running about 12 psi right now with 93 octane (tuned for it) , I would like to bump it up to about 14.5 psi, but I don't want to really reburn the chip if I dont have to. I don't have the equipment to burn the chips, but I know someone that can (for free) just that they're 3-4 hours away from me and I dont have the time for my car to be out of commission. So if I can add some meth/alky then turn up the boost I will be happy...
What would you think higher octane fuel will do for me for the amount of boost increase I want?
From my past experiences with imports running boost, I found that higher octane really didnt do squat for more boost (adding 5 more pounds) , it did help SOME but not as much as I would have expected and the gains were not really shocking.

Could there be an ill effect if I run too high of octane and not enough boost? Will it actually hurt performance? I never really tried to run 104-110 octane with what I have now, but I would think it would probably bog, miss and puff black when under 70%+ to WOT. Reason being is that it would do that when the car was first ran with the first tune and upgraded parts. After leaning it out it went away and now runs like it should.

I wish there was an easy button for this.

TGPvsTIII · July 25, 2008, 06:10:46 AM

If I understand correctly what the dodge guys are doing for using alcohol for just cooling. They use their wide band to see if its right. We have adjustable fuel pressure regulators available for our cars. I have been looking for one that fits a TGP. They drop their fuel pressure a bit and make sure the O2 and computer correct things out of boost. In boost the car runs a set program by just what the map sensor reading is. Since the fuel pressure is down the fuelling is down. They add the alcohol to bring the fueling back up without burning a new chip. The wide band helps you figure out how much alcohol to spray. The cooling helps with knock. heat and compression cause the knock the boost adds cylinder pressure that is why we run premium fuel. If done right alcohol should allow you to run higher boost without running higher octane maybe even allow you to run lower octane. We can get custom chips pretty easy for our cars. some have had chips made to use the alcohol under boost and are running 87 octane with a much higher boost then they would be able to run without alcohol.
Tim

z284pwr · July 25, 2008, 11:39:14 PM

Quote from: mars on July 24, 2008, 11:56:59 PM
I run it...

alcohol water @ 50/50 mix.

It works well to cool down the intake charge. Install nozzle before the IAT sensor and it will sense cooler air and bump timing on it's own. I have mine to activate at 3 psi. quick math showd I needed a 6.1 gph nozzle and I am using a 5 gph. Keeps the inside of the engine free of carbon buildup ect... I haven't tried to tune more timing into the mix yet though. I'll do that later on.

No ill effects at all though, and it has made my AFR quite a bit richer as well. I haven't touched plug gap, and it's not snuffing out the spark at all. Still revs clean up top.

Where do you have your nozzle at? I'd like to install mine, I have the pump and nozzle/nozzles, just haven't discovered a creative place to put it.

Lucky for me, tuning isn't a problem at all so I'm not worried about that part

killinprixs · July 27, 2008, 03:05:25 PM

Im definately going to get a kit as soon as i have the funds. I would also like to know the best place to install the nozzle, pre compresser? Doesnt seem like there are any good places on the intake... and i hear the mix can evaporate a lot quicker in the charge pipe? i was thinking about ordering AIS stage 1 kit 1-25 psi , but not sure about sizing the nozzle, do the kits come with multiple nozzles ? thanks

TGed · July 27, 2008, 03:30:08 PM

I think I am going to hold off for a little while on the kit myself. I have the plans pretty much sorted out, but I'd rather put a little more time into another long dated project I have had sitting for some time now.

If it helps you gpagain, I was going to use a screw in nozzle with an bung that I had made up at work (one of those slow days) and index it to point the nozzle opening at the TB plate while keeping it just before the IAT. hth

TGPilot · July 27, 2008, 05:50:27 PM

Best place for the nozzle is a close to the throttle body blade as possible without going to the vacuum side. You had better have some sort of anti-siphon solenoid in line if you place it after the throttle body.

killinprixs · July 27, 2008, 08:55:55 PM

alright thanks Pilot/TGed, charge pipe it will be.... when i get the kit

cobracmdr · July 28, 2008, 05:23:05 AM

Just move to upstate NY, it was 55 this morning ;) Winters are 0 F that is plenty of cooling for these cars ;)

meltboy11 · July 28, 2008, 08:12:01 AM

Quote from: cobracmdr on July 28, 2008, 05:23:05 AM
Just move to upstate NY, it was 55 this morning ;) Winters are 0 F that is plenty of cooling for these cars ;)

hahaha true, but then at the same time, you don't want to drive your car 6-7 months out of the year though... A couple more months and the TGP goes into storage... :(

Alky/Meth Injection

TGPilot

TGPilot