Manual Boost Controller

[turbo90gp]

ok, I know this has been discussed before, but just for kicks, my friend has an extra one for his talon that hes not using and I just wanted to give it a wirl.  Would it be possible at all??

[eclipse5302]

In a word...sure.

But (this is important), you must use caution.  First, set it low and work your way up.  If you've got a scan tool, use it to observe any knock.  You should also be sure your engine is running tip-top...Because if the ECM was reducing boost before because of knock it won't be able to now.  

Thats my biggest concern with MBCs.  Without one, your ECM can reduce boost if there is problem (knock, ect.) but when you use a MBC the ECM can do nothing about it.  I have to use one because of my 5 speed (which is going to change--I would rather have the ECM in control).  

But, if you run a Jeff M chip and you have an automatic, your gains will be minimal.  This is for many reasons.  

What chip are you running?

Stock:
The only thing you will gain is the way fast spool-up time and maybe a few more psi if you run a stock chip.  But, because of the 9 psi cut-off and the dangerous timing above that pressure point, running above 9 psi on a stock chip without the ECM being able to do anything about it is scary to me.

Jeff M TG160:
Not much for gains here.  His chip already spools fast enough, and max boost is 11-13 psi.  If you run anything above that with his chip there are almost no gains, because the timing is reduced at the higher boost levels to protect the engine.  The T25 isn't much for going past 14 psi on our engines...it cannot produce enough quality boost and airflow because of it's small size.  It's spinning so fast to make more than 14-15 psi on our large engines it starts to heat the air more than you want the air to be heated.

And of course, if anyone here wants to correct me (Jeff?) please do.  I could be wrong in my observations.  Bottom line, if you run a stock chip, try it.  But be VERY careful!

Jason

[Chris A]

I concur captain! :)

That is as I have observed too!

[GPChief]

I want to be as smart as Jason some day!

[turbo90gp]

I am running stock chip, i do not plan to go above 9lbs of boost.  Also, how do I disconnect the computer controlled boost controller?

[eclipse5302]

Disconnecting the factory controller is just a matter of disconnecting the vac/boost lines that go into the solenoid, and hooking them up to your MBC.  Also, you may want to set the MBC for like 7 psi, because it may spike to 9 psi at times.  If you set it at 9 psi, it may spike over that and you will hit boost/fuel cutoff, which is around 9 psi.

Jason

[turbo90gp]

The lines that go into the wastegate solenoid?

[Jeff M]

Don?t buy my chip!! How?s that???  Now I can give you some pointers on running more boost without someone trying to screw up my motivation here and make them something else they are not (more so on the other TGP Forum that this happens)!!  There is plenty of fueling in the stock chip for up to 8.5 to 9 psi, timing is fair enough to that point but not beyond.  BUT that assumes your fuel pump does not have over 120K miles!!  These pumps cannot last forevery/12+ years, and you do not want to run lean.  MORE SO you need to make sure there is enough fuel as Jason was so smart to point out for you, that defeating the ECM controlling the boost takes away the ECM?s abilities to pull back the boost should you detonate beyond safe/short term levels!  SO that also means anyone with a fuel filter with over 60K miles, replace it!!!!  Also know that at times, during colder weather, manual boost controllers do not maintain consistent control, so you may bounce of the fuel cut a few times till the MBC gets warmer internally!  You still will have defeated the safety control of the ECM controlling boost so run a boost gauge and keep an eye on it, you cannot always hear damaging detonation occurring and it does not take a lot.  One of my favorite tech books points out that the pressure levels during detonation can be several thousand psi, 10 times normal operating pressures, and temp levels at the heart of the explosion can reach 18,000 degrees, nothing will survive that, even forged components.  He further explains that a good combustion is one that burns, in a controlled state, but when you detonate, it explodes all at once!!  Granted you should not be able to detonate THAT badly, just wanted to state the other end of the equation.

So, enjoy, safely!

Jeff M

[eclipse5302]

Just for clarification...I was NOT saying don't buy Jeff's chip.  I own one, and I think it's done very well.  I was saying that with Jeff's chip you don't need a MBC because it spools up fast enough on its own.  A MBC is quite useless with his chip, and will only take away the ECMs ability to control boost at all.  I hope no one misunderstood my initial post.

Jason

[Jeff M]

On the boost with chip/without chip, it did have a somewhat confusing way it explained, but my grammar is more odd than most.  No sweat on my brow so don?t even take the time to worry!!  8)

I only said the ?don?t buy my chip? thing since there has been some, shall we say poor conduct elsewhere regarding me referencing the safety risks of tweaking the turbo setup and other things :-).


Jeff M

[eclipse5302]

Safety risks while turing a turbo car?  Nahh...  :)

I feel you have always been clear and accurate on tuning risks with the TGP, and I think sometimes people just don't want to hear the risks.  There is a lot to consider when tuning any turbo car, especailly one thats 12 years old!  And once someone gets in to chip tuning, all it takes is to go lean once, or have a little too much timing and bang...you engine is a huge slug of cast iron/aluminum.

Just wanted to make sure people didn't misunderstand me when I was talking of your chip.  I use it (TG160) and I feel it works very well!  Now you just need to come out with a TG160 5-speed chip for my Cutlass...one thats tuned for ported/matched Gen3 heads, a Garrett T3, and 29 lb injectors.  Heh, that car is going to be fun!

Jason

[Jeff M]

Yea its easy to make a change, and for the very few who want to tackle this (less than 1% of the owners I have talked to since 1995), they just need to know it?s the safe results that are the big challenge.  How about this; I read over and over big auto makers, or big name aftermarket tuners, and TONS of pro racers having some proto-type vehicle out for magazine testing and showing off, and have some woops or lame ass acceleration times that they indicate is the need for further computer tuning.  For the OEMs they say ?before it goes on sale all the bugs will be fixed?.  BULL SHIT!!! I have a Snap-On book that is FULL of GM update chips, these are chips that GM ?Finally? (it takes an act of god to get them to help out the owners!!) acknowledges are needed for some drivability, power or whatever problems.  Even newer more thought out chips like an example, in the 1995 trucks with the 4.3L (that motor has been out for a long time) has 25 different versions of chips for it (not for differences in tranny or rear gears or!!!), and the book I have shows some engines have pages of fix-it/updated chips.  If GM, who knows their chips (tables, calcs, programming etc) and engines and has THE equipment to test and tune properly is constantly having to redo their tuning, what the frick makes us so damn good??  Only thing I can say is we only need to be concerned with one chip/engine setup, and I like that since tuning this one chip has been great and rewarding fun!  There is a neat trick with a simple wire to switch the programs in our chips so you could say, have one for 92 octane and another for 100 octane, I love this chip, but it helps to have secured a legal and confidential copy of the TGP chip?s workings and such!

As for the bigger injectors, all the other chip tuner guys I have known and talked to that tackled this, eventually found for their engine/chip (L98, LS1, Sy/Ty, GN etc) that it could be done/change the chip to accept these bigger injectors, BUT there was a long time tuning for things like AE, PE, idle fuel, cruise fuel, loaded fuel tables, and of course the timing and all this as well to educate the computer about all the engine changes you did that necessitated the larger flowing injectors in the first place (bigger heads, bigger cam etc) and bigger cams messing the shit out of things and taking a while to resolve as well. What most find out if they stick to it long enough, is bigger injectors will exaggerate those ?not so perfect? tables and such the OEMs did not finish properly, and I just love (now, not at first) all that I found and fixed with my 29 pound chip that I will incorporate into the standard injector chips I already have?..ever notice the slight chuggling the car does when lightly loaded in 4th gear/TCC locked, it?s was a lot worse with the bigger injectors, and when I fixed it for the 29 pounders, did a quick test and found the fix helped smooth out the stock injector chips running as well.  And there is a lot more the 29 pounder has shown me that I can improve in the stock injector chip BUT I want to take some time to check each area out and further tune if there is anything else to gain or improve.  As for a manual tranny chip, I had started on one once, found all the areas to change (then had someone offer to send me a copy of 3 different versions they swiped of one already done, I declined!!) and it would have been fit to go/test but the owner to test these found other supporters more like his kind.  So doing one with larger injectors and manual tranny is doable, its not for the masses as I know of less than 10 of the 2,000 owners going this route, and still makes me wonder, Dedenbear sells a $4,000 automatic transmission (Power Glide) that can handle up to 1,250 hp, for who???  Must be there is something still good about an auto, not to trash the manual, but the manual not to trash the auto, there is give and take, good and bad in everything in life.  As for the Gen III heads, they will make a difference for the chip, but after I found I can get the Gen IIs to flow as well as ported Gen IIIs, tuning will be done more for the Gen II, but the chip for my Gen III heads is also with the stock upper and lower TGP intakes, larger cam, roller rockers, 350 hp turbo, and lots of mods so it will not compare with many of the chips I can offer. But that TGP is made to make a name for our little and growing TGP community, and since I got 2 TGP owners to run mid 13?s on just just some engine work and a custom race chip, see no reason at all I cannot get us a 12 to brag about, that is another goal of mine for the community, wish me luck, and if I have to run 100 octane and huge boost and break something so be it, but that should not be needed, 92 octane should work great, but I am determined, as always.

Jeff M

[eclipse5302]

Yeah, I agree that the auto can be just as fast (or faster) than a 5 speed.  And Autos can handle the power too.  But the main reason I put the 5 speed in my Cutlass was because I wanted a Turbo 3.1 with a manual.  I'm sure the Turbo STE will be faster than the 5 speed, but the manual is  still fun to drive.

As for those drivability updates for the stock injector chip...are you going to offer an upgrade program for those of us who bought the TG160 chips?  I'm sure it will be a while before the chip is fully tested though.  Anyhow, keep up the hard/good work...it's appreciated!

Jason

[1trucavalier]

i saw in another post that tgpilot can help you with the 5-speed topgun chip issue.