Ok, I know this may be trivial and annoying to most of you, but bare with me. If this was happening on one of my 6000s, it would be a different story, but I'm at a loss when it comes to turbos because I have no experience with them. This is the STE I finally just received off the eBay auction (see the "Bought my first TGP off eBay, but where is it????" thread). Here goes.......
The first time I ran into a problem was when I raced my sister's LeSaber T-Type (3800 Series I) on our way to a restaurant a couple days after getting the car. I killed her right away, but just as I came up on redline, the power to the engine dropped completely, exactly as if I had taken my foot off the accelerator. It was the first time I had flat out floored it without letting go. It scarred the hell out of me, so I got off the gas. The car didn't die, it resumed driving perfectly fine when I put my foot on the pedal again. Since then, the car has consistently done the same thing in any gear right when I feel the biggest boost (the gauge shows it getting close to 15?). I feel an incredible surge of power for literally a split second, and then nothing. It's quite frustrating when you're pounding a Porsche Boxster (who had decided to join in on me and my sis's race out of nowhere), and then suddenly you have no acceleration at all. I've experimented since I discovered this problem. I've kept my foot planted even while it does this, and after it bucks, it goes into second and continues on it's merry way, literally feeling like I just shifted a manual. The boost takes much longer to build up in second when this happens, though. At first, I was afraid the transmission was slipping since even when I'm just cruising at low speeds and it up-shifts, there is a certain area where power seems to shutter on and off till I press the pedal down a hair more and it smoothes out. But now it feels like it's turbo related. Almost like a stuck waste-gate or something? Or maybe the whole turbo could just use a rebuild? It did blow blueish smoke out the exhaust for the first mile it was drivin when I first picked it up, according to my friend who was following me. It's also been suggested that I'm hitting the fuel cut-off. Sometimes when it resumes from this quick break in power, it still continues in first gear at very high RPMs if I kept my foot planted, while boost falls to 0.
The car has 120K on the clock and seems to be operating fine 90% of the time, although the shuttering in power at low RPMs is getting more frequent. It has never had a problem starting or idling, but idle does seem to feel rough sometimes. And, it does have a horrible crunching feeling from the right front wheel upon the first second of accleration from a stand still, and again just as it comes to a complete stop (ball joint?) I haven't done anything to it yet as far as tune up, and the mounts that I know are shot, etc. I've only had it a couple weeks. I hope this isn't something serious already. :cry:
Yea ..you hit fuel cut. The stock chip cuts fuel and spark at 9.5psi i think. And don't ever go by the "give or take" factory gauge. Get a real boost gauge to see what the real boost as you drive. If you have/or when you get a real boost gauge..see at what psi the engine cuts...(prob 9.5psi). You could have a wastegate prob..or you prob have a high flow filter--good thing.
One remidy is to buy a TOP GUN chip. Another is to lower the boost w/manual boost controler---no fun.
Yea with this torquie engine the mounts go bye-bye verry quickly. Have you seen idbeast web site on his mounts :shock: . FFW dog bone mount is one way...polygraghit is nother. I don't know if they make a poly lower mount.
I woun't doubt its a cv joint.
Well this is a 13+ year old car. So some things need replacement.
Thanks for the tips, TurboGTU. I had a feeling it was the fuel cut off. It's very aggrevating to have the power taken from you just as you start feeling it the most. :x I don't have a K&N yet, so the over boost is not from that. Is it common for these cars to consistantly hit the fuel cut off though when you gun 'em ? I mean, I literally have not floored it once yet without it cutting on me.
I do fully intend on getting a Jeff M top gun chip. We've spoken a couple of times before in the past. He bought numerous TGP parts off me a few months ago when I found a donor car for the motor for "Project Ultimate STE" (an '89 Pontiac 6000 STE AWD w/the TGP motor :D ). I sold off the rest of the car. If I knew I was going to buy a turbo for keeps a few months later, I probably would have held on to the spare parts :( Oh well, live and learn. My main concern with the top gun chip, though, is if it's safe to run on a car with 120K miles and some issues that need addressing yet?
I also know about the FFW mounts. I've been toying around with the idea of getting them for the AWDs, too. The 2.8/3.1 seems to chew through mounts all too easily, turbo or N/A!
I know it will need some work due to its age. Trust me, I've owned nothing but 6000 STEs to this point, all of which the previous owners neglected when it came to replacing things like sensors, struts, even the air filter :shock: . I suppose I should ask now since I'm going to get to work on this thing real soon. What should I get for:
Plugs and wires
Ignition Coils (Is there a such thing as performance ones?)
Shocks all the way around
Strut tower braces (front & rear)
Fuel Injectors (doesn't really need them, but performance ones wouldn't hurt :wink: )
Also, is it safe to do a flush on a radiator this old? I've always heard not to unless you've replaced it. And what about the age old question for a tranny with 100K+ miles: Drain and refill, or leave it alone? My fluid does smells burnt.
Sorry for so many questions, but I'd like to get this done right and a realize that the TGP has some "special needs". I emailed Jeff M with all these inquires, but I realize that he is an extremely busy man and probably won't be able to get back to me for a while. Any help in the mean time would be greatly appreciated. My goal in the long run will be to have the quickest TGP. 8)
QuoteMy main concern with the top gun chip, though, is if it's safe to run on a car with 120K miles and some issues that need addressing yet?
It is best to address the issues first, as the added boost and performance are an eye opener, but if you don't tell jeff and he will tone the chip down a little bit, then when you get the issues fixed, send him your chip and he will reprogram it.
All of my TGP's & TSTE's except for 1 have over 150K and are chipped and driven hard!!!
QuotePlugs and wires
Ignition Coils (Is there a such thing as performance ones?)
Shocks all the way around
Strut tower braces (front & rear)
Fuel Injectors (doesn't really need them, but performance ones wouldn't hurt :wink: )
Stock wires have been the best, and plugs I'm still using the OLD rapid fire #8's, I've been using stock AC Delco's in other peoples cars, maybe someone can help out with this one, what are other people having good luck with???
Stock coils are good also.
I still use AC Delco Fuel Injectors, but some have went to accels, but I don't know about long term use...
QuoteAlso, is it safe to do a flush on a radiator this old? I've always heard not to unless you've replaced it. And what about the age old question for a tranny with 100K+ miles: Drain and refill, or leave it alone? My fluid does smells burnt.
Yes it is safe to flush the Radiator, if flushing it causes a problem, it was in need of repair, and would have caused an overheated engine and warped heads.
Tranny fluid smells burnt... take it to a tranny shop and have them do a power flush, it will flush all to old fluid out of the tranny and torque converter.
Hope this helps out a little bit... :drinking: :drinking:
Thanks, Jim. Yes, that definitely helps!! That's very true on the radiator. If something goes wrong, it was going to need attention soon, anyways. But the one question I asked in the beginning still remains. Is it normal for the TGPs to consistantly hit the fuel cut off when you floor it? I mean literally every time! Or could there be some other issues at hand, here?
And as for the tranny flush, I have heard not to mess with the fluid in cars with 100K+ miles if it has never been done prior to that mileage. That is why I was asking if I should even try it, or just let it ride as is?
Are the coils the same as regular 3.1s? Also, would you happen to have the parts numbers for the plugs and wires handy? I have no manual for this car :oops:
http://fp.enter.net/~nicolette/images/turboGP/boostsolenoid.jpg
Here's a picture of the boost control solenoid for a TGP. The solenoid is located on a plenum bolt. One of the lines should go to the compressor side of the turbo for the boost supply and another line should go to the wastegate actuator. The third fitting is left open and might have a little piece of foam on it. I'm telling you this, because it sounds like you may have a routing issue, or if it's not that it could be a bad wastegate actuator. The wastegate actuator uses a diaphram and spring set a certain psi...what happens is the boost fills the chamber in the actuator and the diaphram expands overcoming the force of the spring at whatever psi it's designed for(around 4.5 psi on a TGP one). What may have happened is that the diaphram on the actuator may be leaking and therefore it will never overcome the force of the spring and will never open the wastegate. This happened on my first TGP and was easily remedied with a wastegate actuator from a turbo 2.0 sunbird turbo that I had lying around. Also, check to make sure that the wastegate actuator rod is free and not rusted in place. Hopefully, this might help cure your overboost problem. Also, are you getting any codes??? namely code 32 IIRC :D
Yes sir..skalor and I think its your boost controling. It should only maybe do it onece or twice on a good filter on a cool day..but you don't have one..so you shouldn't even overboost.
If the trans is flush completely...it shouldn't be a problem. Yea the old oil and the new oil won't mix well and will make the trans shift badly or slip. Its like having two different grades of oil in there.
By the way, how is your drivetrain configured in your 6000AWD ...what trans does it use...I've looked every where (J/yds, web) to see what kind of setup they have. Is it setup like the Caravan AWD trans/transfercase...?
QuoteBut the one question I asked in the beginning still remains. Is it normal for the TGPs to consistently hit the fuel cut off when you floor it? I mean literally every time! Or could there be some other issues at hand, here?
No it is not normal for TGP's to hit fuel cut, the most common problem for this is, as Skylor stated, a vacuum line on the to boost controller being bad, or a couple people have had bad solenoids...
The other problem is one you don't have yet and that is the K&N filter breathing too freely and allowing the overboost.
QuoteAnd as for the tranny flush, I have heard not to mess with the fluid in cars with 100K+ miles if it has never been done prior to that mileage. That is why I was asking if I should even try it, or just let it ride as is?
Do the power flush it gets all the old fluid out of everything, as turbogtu also stated. You will only screw up your tranny with the old fluid in there, also overfill it by 4 quarts, this is recommended by Gil Younger, also known as Mr. Shift!!!
QuoteAre the coils the same as regular 3.1s? Also, would you happen to have the parts numbers for the plugs and wires handy? I have no manual for this car.
The Coils are the same, i'll have to go out to the garage and see if I have the old boxes on the plugs and wires...
:drinking:
Thanks a million, guys. That's the info I was looking for. I'll get the tranny and radiator hopefully flushed next week. And in the mean time, I'll check out all your suggestions. I will definitely change plugs, wires, O2 sensor, ignition coils, and mounts all around in the next couple of weeks, all with the best parts possible. This thing will be much more fun once I'm allowed to use its full power. Funny thing is, this car went so cheap that I was just thinking "ok, I'll buy it and leave it on the way side for when I have the time and money to play with it". But now, I just can't wait :shock: It's too much fun upsetting all the snobs in this town driving their over priced Lexus' and Beamers. :P
As for the 6000 AWD drive train, you probably haven't seen one in the junkyard because there were a whopping 1,376 produced in '89 and 124 in '88. You think TGP parts are hard to find? Don't even get me started on these things. At least there is a decent sized following for the McLarens. I got more replies to my questions in a couple of days then I would have in months on the 6000 board. All though more and more people seem to be coming out of the wood works with AWDs and joining the club.
Saginaw did the work on this car, from completely changing and reinforcing the floor plan, to coming up with the components for it. The AWD still uses the same 3-speed 125C with a modified case to add on a section for the extra gears to send power to the back. This also allows for equal lenght half shafts to reduce understeer. A 2 peice drive shaft sends the power to a custom rear differential. Almost all of the components in the rear diff are machined down front end pieces from the Blazer/S10 series trucks. The front overall ratio is a 3.18 while the rear is a nice, heafty 3.42 :lol: The suspension set up in the rear is very similar to the GPs with a single composite, transverse mounted leaf spring and struts (all though the AWDs have self leveling air versions of these struts). It has a 60/40 power split front to rear on an open differential in regular use. There is a differential lock switch on the center console for extreme conditions which sends 50% of the power to one front wheel and one rear wheel at all times. I've never really needed to use this feature yet, as it has had an easy time getting around even the deepest snow.
I have the GM Training Kit video on this car featuring the '88 AWD that they only made 124 of. I have yet to see one in person. This is the actual video that the GM mechanics had to watch and take a test off of. I am selling copies of them for $15 shipped on VCD (not for profit, but to cover my costs. I paid a pretty heafty price tag for it off eBay and to get it converted to VCD). I was practically crying the first time I saw the video. We went from no info at all, to all this detailed instruction of how it operates and how to take everything apart. It was beautiful. and sad to see a perfect condition undercarriage before retards who didn't know what they were driving destroyed it. If you've got any more questions on this car, fire away. I'm kinda' like the Jeff M of AWD 6000s...except...without the capability to improve them :(