It's time to take the LG5 3.1 Turbo V6 powerplant to the next step. The Buick Grand National guys can make their low-tech 3.8L 90* V6 run 10s as standard-fare, so I see no reason we can't make our 3.1 60* V6s run at least 13s with a standard recipe. We have done the small bolt ons like chip, air filter, and exhaust, and it provided some small noticable gains. But surely there is a group of enthusiasts/owners out there more serious about performance and ready to step up to the next level. I figure the small bolt on stage brings us to about 250-275 HP and 300 LB-FT. But I am interested in the 350-400HP range. I think it will be much more simple to accomplish than the routes people are currently going. I see people putting heads, cams, and doing port work while still maintaining the stock T25 turbo or upgrading to the T28. I think that's all wrong. I think it will only require the following things. 1.) Increased boost on stock motor. 2.) Additional fuel since the paltry stock 22# injectors are maxxed out with a Top Gun chip, 3.) high performance transmission rebuild to handle the power, 4.) Traction (?), and 5.) High octane fuel to allow running high boost and timing. It's very tough to make good power on 93 octane pump gas on a stock motor. In fact according to http://www.sdsefi.com/techcomb.htm, "
turbo engines cannot realize their full hp potential without high octane fuel.". http://www.sdsefi.com/techocta.htm is also good relevant reading on this subject.
The first thing to upgrade after the initial "small bolt on stage" would be the woefully inadequate stock T25 turbo. It can't even put out enough boost efficiently, to reach the limit of 93 octane. That's really weak!! I'm accustomed to turbo vehicles coming with turbos large enough that you can turn the boost high enough to reach the limit of high octane racing fuel. I beleive if you take the stock LG5 motor on a TGP, put a more suitable ~500cfm turbo on, and run 20 PSI Boost on high octane fuel, it would be in our 350-400 HP range and solid 13s, maybe even low 13s or better. That's considering our crippling FWD traction issue.
But before you can run 20 PSI boost you need the turbo, like I was saying. There doesn't seem to be ANY good options here. The T28 is a negligible upgrade as far as I'm concerned. It still has the incredibly tiny T25 turbine orifice and would use that horrible stock crossover T2 exhaust flange. Most of the T28s I've seen advertised said it was good for 300HP. $1000 to run 3 tenths (30HP) faster doesn't sound like good bang for the buck as far as my wallet is concerned! The best option I've seen so far is Jud's ball bearing $975 "GT28" turbo and even that looks too small. What I'd like to see is a T3-flanged crossover pipe. Then I could bolt on my stock Syclone turbo (Mitsubishi TD06-17c, 8cm2 exhaust housing, internal wastegate, water/oil cooled, and 550cfm. Maximum efficient output behind a 4.3L 262cid V6 engine is 20 PSI which is certainly more than enough for us. Maybe a little too big. FWIW, 20 PSI on the cited 4.3 engine resulted in approximately 410HP and 12.2 @ 108 MPH quarter mile times completely maxxed out stock combo with Perfect traction coming out of the hole hard enough for 1.7 60's. Very similar weight vehicle to a TGP.)
With a T3 turbo our turbo SIZE problem would no longer be an issue as there are lots of selections there, the Ford Turbo 2.3 4 cylinder turbo, a Garret T3 (not sure on exact specs) would be a good size for the 300-350 HP range. However, our next issue would be mating a downpipe. The TGP uses a T2-specific 5-bolt pattern that I don't beleive any T3-family uses. Even Jud's "GT28" turbo required a little cut-n-fit to make it work. However the pipe from the turbo to the catalytic converter area is not very complicated so I assume a custom downpipe could be made relatively easily, so long as it had some type of heat wrapping to keep out bastard WalletMaster III brake system from frying of heat. Our stock T25 also has a highly unusual O2 sensor bung cast directly in the exhaust housing (How non-standard could they get? It's almost like ASC/McLaren went out of their way to make upgrading this thing really miserable.) So installing a new O2 sensor bung post-turbo will also be necessary.
Let's assume we got the bigger T3 turbo with an internal wastegate, and a new crossover pipe with a T3 flange, and got a downpipe to mate and complete the exhaust. (Stock 2.25" exhaust should be sufficient for everyone, I went 12.2 @ 108 with my Syclone's stock 2.5" downpipe so unless you plan on going faster than that I don't believe 3" is necessary. I also ran an open dump on my TGP and noted virtually no HP/TQ increases over full exhaust with no cat.). Anyways, the next thing you'll need to do is find a way to plumb the turbo's oil and water lines. No small task given the tight space restrictions of our FWD engine bay. Jud seems to have it figured out with his GT28 but keep in mind how costly those blue and red aluminum -AN connectors are. Expect to spend at least $100 here with lots of time hand cutting, hand assembling, and fitting.
Next order of business will be the fuel. Like I said the stock 22# injectors belong on a naturally aspirated V6, not a Turbo V6. We have the option of using larger injectors (I'd say the SyTy 28# stock injectors would be suitable and surely available cheap in used form from SyTy people upgrading, for the $50-$100 range.) Adding more injector would allow us to run more boost but KEEP IN MIND that adding more fuel does NOT increase the point of detonation for a given fuel. So let's say on a stock TGP motor with 8.8:1 compression and aluminum splayed-valve heads with a nice heart-shaped combustion chamber, you can run 12 PSI Boost maximum with 0 detonation before the stock T25 turbo runs out of steam (and goes SLOWER at any subsequent increase in boost past 12 PSI). With larger injectors you may realize the true limit of 93 octane gas is really only 15-16 PSI. 3 PSI isn't
that much more over 12 PSI. Once you reach the boost limit of your fuel (octane),
more fuel isn't going to change that octane rating. I see that point frequently misunderstood. After the octane limit of 93 is reached, to continue increasing the boost (and power) you must step up to high octane fuel (or build a motor that flows more air i.e. build it like a N/A motor by doing stroker crank/rods, ported heads, cam, etc. [engine internals]). As we learned from the SDSEFI Tech Page link (see above), a turbo engine is going to reach its maximum horsepower potential only on high octane fuel. What that means for us, is if we want to really go fast on our stock motors, we need to run high boost and high octane fuel. I have done this successfully for 3 years on my stock motor Syclone. I have over 1000 quarter mile passes and its currently running 11.7s @ 114mph with 23 PSI Boost and I have never had to remove a valve cover because I am careful. Now am I suggesting this is for everyone? Absolutely not, some people only can handle stomping their right foot or showing off in front of friends, that is not going to allow your motor to last, you must have self control and the willpower to play it safe and monitor your motor to ensure it is never detonating (pinging) or it will self destruct in short order at these types of high boost, high-HP levels. But for those willing to step up, we can run Wideband O2s and/or scan tools to datalog our knock sensors and ECM values to monitor what is happening, and slowly and carefully turn up the boost until maximum power output is reached in a safe manner.
So I was discussing adding extra fuel. If you change injectors to a size large enough to handle our target power output, they will be of a size large enough over stock to the point where a chip calibrated for stock 22# injectors will not drive properly doing the upgraded injectors. I know people like to ignore this fact but I beleive it to just be the hard truth. This is another serious void that needs to be filled before us as LG5 tuners can really start to enjoy some significant power output. As far as I know there are NO proper street-car chips for larger injectors. I mean chips that perform properly at WOT as well as driving in stop and go traffic, in cold weather, in warm weather, etc. However, there is 1 alternative to adding bigger injectors that I haven't mentioned up till now, and it is the method I may be using. One could keep the stock injectors and run them static (at 100% output, however insufficient it may be at WOT) and then supplement the fuel with alcohol injection. I do this on my Syclone and it performs beyond my wildest expectations. Specifically I use the SMC (www.smcenterprises.com) $400 alcohol injection kit and I spray Methanol which is, according to my research, the second best race fuel only to Nitromethane. Originally I heard people say "alcohol injection is almost as good as race gas." but this seems to be only half true. It may actually be
better than race gas! Methanol has 10% oxygen content so as it burns, it's like a slight nitrous oxide effect. Also it releases slightly less heat (BTUs) than gasoline BUT it burns at a much richer AFR (air fuel ratio) so in the end it does release more heat than gasoline and will create higher PCP pressing the piston down harder and creating more power. Ever see 7 second "alcohol dragsters"? There is a reason they are running Methanol and not gasoline anymore. (Same reason all the 4 second cars are running Nitromethane). Back to methanol. Spraying methanol in the intake also has a TREMENDOUS intercooling effect, to the point where it can make the intake manifold have condensation form on it like the outside of a beer can on a warm day (I have felt it with my own hands.) I have also datalogged intake manifold temperatures while spraying methanol, that are 10*F LOWER than the actual air temperature outside. (I.e., I tested on a 35*F day and I got my intake manifold temperature sensor to read 25*F.) Finally the methanol obviously provides additional fuel so I beleive I could do the same thing on my TGP as I did on my Syclone -- that is, max out the stock fuel injectors but spray Methanol injection at WOT for extra fuel that is also high octane AND cooling the combustion chamber, for a result that nets me not only increased total fuel quantity but also quality (octane) and provides dramatic intercooling to the point where a stock intercooler upgrade is not necessary.
Now I realize our stock TGP intercooler does really suck, being completely blocked of direct air flow (unless you hack your air conditioner), but at this point I think there is insufficient data to suggest replacing it. I will wait until after all the prior things I have mentioned have been installed and see if the intake manifold temperatures truly suggest an intercooler deficiency at the top end of the dragstrip.
There is one last thing to mention regarding our fueling. I did say there is no chip available to handle larger injectors. But I also need to mention there is ALSO no chip available that can add fuel over 15 PSI! Our ECM is speed-density which means it uses the MAP sensor to determine the current engine air flow (as opposed to a MAF (Mass air Flow meter)). However our stock MAP sensor is only 2-BAR. Meaning it can read 1 BAR of vacuum, and 1 BAR of boost. In other words after 14.7 PSI (1 BAR) Boost, the ECM is flying blind and doesn't have any idea if you are at 16 PSI or 25 PSI and it can't possibly add the respective amount of additional fuel. GM made a 3 BAR MAP sensor for the boost gauge on the MAF-equipped 1989 Turbo Trans Am which had a 16.5-PSI stock boost level, but it's not as simple as plugging in the MAP sensor into your TGP and running. Your chip has to be TOTALLY recalibrated to read the 3 BAR MAP sensor AND custom Motorola assembly code would need to be implemented. As far as I know, there is only 1 person to have accomplished this and it was Brian Green only for the '749 Syclone/Typhoon/TurboSunbird/GrandAm/Calais/Quad4 ECM. This is one of the most difficult barriers we will need to surpass. The Buick 3.8 Turbo V6 motor doesn't have this issue because it uses Mass Air. The modified Syclone/Typhoons all run 3-Bar MAP and 3-Bar chip as some of the first bolt-ons, and there aren't really any other Speed-density (MAP) turbo GM motors out there that people are modifying other than the ones I've listed. The way I plan on addressing this problem is most likely to use a fuel-cut-defeater and alcohol injection on stock injectors, which is a very crude and imprecise fueling system, but it has performed very well on my Syclone probably partially due to the forgiveness of Methanol's 4:1 Air-fuel ratio (in other words even if you have a bunch of extra methanol, it isn't really going to effect power output in a negative way like running much too rich on gasoline would.) I also plan on using a wideband O2 to accurately sample the air fuel ratio and determine if I'm going lean (stock O2 is not sufficient!!) www.plxdevices.com sells a nice one for under $300 using the newly discovered cheap Bosch Wideband O2 sensor (the old NTK sensor alone was over $150!)
So anyways I believe the formula of high boost and high octane is a pretty time tested one for making high power output on a turbocharged motor. I will assume that at 17-20 PSI with a big turbo and sufficient fuel (100-110+ octane on larger injectors, or the combo of stock injectors with 93 octane and Methanol injection), we will make the targer HP. The only remaining problems are transmissions and traction. Once again we are bitten because this path has hardly been beaten down before. So there is little if any transmission failure research/analysis to provide us with a source for upgraded, stronger, intelligent 4T60 upgrades to handle the 400+ LB-FT of torque we may be putting out. Our tranny is not easily removed/reinstalled either (is it?) So this is a critical factor currently limiting our success. I am for the record, not a fan of 5 speeds for drag racing (but definitely for autocross/road-racing) and I don't think a 5 speed letting off the gas 3 times going down the track is going to be as fast as a properly built (i.e. quick shifting) automatic that gets 100% WOT from start to finish AND can spool up the bigger turbo at the line with brake-torqueing.
Finally let's assume we had the motor putting out the power, and the tranny able to handle it. The last problem is getting traction and I think this will always cause us to suffer 3-5 tenths over someone with RWD or AWD but anyone who is modifying their Grand Prix will have had to acknowledge this irreversible fact at the start of their project so it should come as no surprise.
I am hoping for lots of input on this subject and maybe we can start to really show people what this extremely oddball, one-off Turbo V6 GM motor can do. So in summary, here are the issues remaining that we need to solve:
1.)
- Need bigger turbo
2.) [ ] Need T3 style exhaust crossover flange
3.) [ ] Need T3 adaptable downpipe flange
4.) - Need O2 sensor relocated
5.) - Need turbo oil/water plumbing to fit new turbo
6.) [ ] Need 3-Bar MAP sensor and respective 3-Bar programmed chip code
7.) - Need high octane fuel
8.) - Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost
9.) [ ] Need 4T60 automatic transmission parts sufficient to handle the power
10.) [ ] Need traction to utilize increased power.
* Problems marked - have readily-available solutions. Problems without an
- are currently unsolved and keeping the TGPs by far and large in the 14s!!
The Future: I dont think camshafts or heads or porting or throttle bodies or any of those things are necessary until after the level I've discussed has been reached. So I will not discuss them and I will assume they are NOT part of our equation as they could really throw it off. (High flowing heads or a high lift cam are certainly going to throw your chip calibration off wack and far from optimal, and besides that, I am not convinced the extra airflow is not gonna do you much good on a stock turbo when its already severely bottlenecked from the factory with the stock crossover exhaust flange and turbine housing.)
I do have one other comment I want to add that I forgot to fit in above; I'm pretty disappointed that it will take so much time, effort (cutting/fitting/customizing), and money $$$ to go to the next level. Most of this is because the stock turbo is so non-upgradeable and because our cars are so obscure and one-off that there is virtually zero aftermarket. But no sense crying over facts that cannot be changed, so let's forge ahead!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
You should probably talk to Jeff M. He's been tampering with these TGPs for quite some time, and is the only person that I know of producing chips for sale on these cars. If I'm not mistaken, he also has a 300+ hp TGP that is running 5 flat 0-60 and low 13s in the 1/4 mile. This, I believe, is due to some more goodies he's experimenting with. I think he's working on a package for bigger turbo/injectors + chip to run them . I also believe he said he's going to try to make it a bolt up deal without having to fabricate everything to make the new set-up work. He's probably got the most experience/info/know-how on the intricate details of the TGPs. Idbeast also knows quite a bit about these cars, being he owns 5 of them. :shock:
Tooky, AMEN. AMEN. Many good points, now I really can't wait to tear my motor apart tomorrow. Dale Malcolm Omaha, NE.
I'm glad to see someone is going to join the race to the fast TGP. I have set aside a list of parts and motor twiking that is going to be done to my TGP that is going to cost around $2000 to do. I'm hoping to be down into the 12's without blinking an eye. According to desktop dyno the motor will be pushing around 370 HP. To take care of the turbo problem there is a company who I have to get ahold of again that can take our measily little T-25 turbo's and rebuild them with new internals that will pump up the boost without having to change anything as far as hook ups aka oil and water lines. Fuel management can be solved by 1) ordering higher pound injectors 2) higher flow fuel pump and 3) a fuel pressure regulator from chill factory. Also if you want to get some serious ponies you gotta get rid of the side mount intercooler. Spend some time and money and invest in a front mount that will fit behind the grill underneath the bumber and have some new tubing made. This can be done it is currently in the works on my TGP. If you really want to get nasty order up a CO2 charged intercooler. The one from chill factory will drop the temp almost 60 degrees guaranteed. Also with the traction control issue thats as simple as ordering a phantom grip limited slip differential. The difference in how you car will take off is phenomenal. Lets get to the building of our V6 power houses and crank it up. I'm hoping to have all of my stuff done in order to run down the strip at the national grand prix gathering around labor day. ANYONE CARE TO JOIN ME IN SHOWING THEM SOME REAL TGP POWER??? :twisted:
I plan on taking my TGP to the next level as soon as I start working on it again :oops:. Its been really cold around here lately, and the little kerosene heater I have in my garage doesn cut it. Anyways, I started a thread about running 13s and I was glad to see others that want to do the same, and even some that want to go further. I'm in on taking my TGP to the next level, and I'm looking to get it there with the stock engine in one piece. :twisted:
There certainly is going to be a long road ahead of us, but I for one think that it's about time that this road be traveled. 8)
As far as a T-3, the T-28 is a T-25 housing modified to accept a T-3 center section... in other words it is a bolt-on T-3 without all the extra work!!!!!
Except your still stuck with the tiny .68(IIRC) T-25 turbine housing. That's not even the biggest T-25/T-28 turbine housing made. Jeff M. has even spoke of how we need a bigger turbine housing in a thread where we discussed turbo upgrades and the exhaust backpressure relationship. The fact is that we need a bigger turbine housing and a using a T-3 would be ideal due to large number of different turbine housing that exist for it. Putting a T-3 flange on the x-over is the easy part, making a downpipe is the hard part. :evil: Now, I plan on just going the T-28 route myself as I have a 5 speed swap in the works and I personally am in love with the fast spool. Ideally, a T-3 would be the best way to go, but unfortunately it's not the easiest way. :x :roll:
here's the thread on the third page after my post:
http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6942&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
I looked at the link for the GT28 turbo and it says "This turbo is great for small displacement engines up to 2.2L". Ours is 50% larger than that!!! And then it says "This turbo has a flow capacity of about 350HP." Well where do you go from there? I want to buy a turbo that will take me longer than 1 week to max out. The GT28 is great if your running a 2.0L DOHC Mitsubishi 4G63 like it's designed for, but I'm not as confident about putting it behind my 3.1L 191CI. I think T25/T28-ANYTHING is going to be too small for the goals I've laid out.
If you think 300-350 HP is a lot, think again because the early LS1 Camaros had low 300 HP and a lot of them only ran low 14s stock and high 13s took small bolt ons and/or a good driver. I think anyone who runs a T25 or T28 is crippling themselves and ensuring they'll never get out of the 14s or maybe very high 13s. We need more than that!! We need a turbo that says "Good for 400HP" or "Good behind 3.1L V6 engine" ;-) (just kidding but you know what I mean)
True we need a bigger turbo, the t28 is machined out bigger for the T3 exhaust wheel. The problem with the t3 is that not only do you need the exhaust flange, but you need to make a flapper (to attach to the actuator) in the down pipe to bleed off pressure... no much room to do that with the ABS sitting there...
Yeah, I completely agree that we need a much larger turbo than the GT28RS. I was just pointing out that I think it's a great upgrade for those of us that don't want to muck about in all of the changes that would be needed to fit in a T-3 or something comparable. We should do some exhaust flow calculations to get an idea of what kinda A/R we should be running, and then work from there. It will probably turn out to be a mid-sized T-3 on the turbine(I'm thinking .63 or so), but that's still making it very streetable power(on an automatic).
Quote from: TookyCat
1.) - Need bigger turbo
2.) [ ] Need T3 style exhaust crossover flange
3.) [ ] Need T3 adaptable downpipe flange
4.) - Need O2 sensor relocated
5.) - Need turbo oil/water plumbing to fit new turbo
6.) [ ] Need 3-Bar MAP sensor and respective 3-Bar programmed chip code
7.) - Need high octane fuel
8.) - Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost
9.) [ ] Need 4T60 automatic transmission parts sufficient to handle the power
10.) [ ] Need traction to utilize increased power.
* Problems marked - have readily-available solutions. Problems without an
- are currently unsolved and keeping the TGPs by far and large in the 14s!!
2.) http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-FLS-001&Category_Code=FLS
That's an expensive flange and I could easily make a couple at my work on our BMC( I make 1G DSM BOV flanges all the time for my friends). Anyways, the the flanges usually show up on ebay to for a little cheaper.
3.) I don't know about this one as I've never really dealt a lot with T-3s with internal wastegates. I know as Idbeast stated that they are longer than their T-25 conterparts and they might interfere with the powercrapper III. It would definitely have to be a tight radius on the downpipe from the T-3 with internal wastegates that I've seen.
With a 5-spd tranny though wouldn't it create more room to place a turbo?
Quote from: RyanWith a 5-spd tranny though wouldn't it create more room to place a turbo?
No... 8)
did you do the conversion or was it waskie? I remember reading a thread but can't remember if you did it or not. you made a custom support for the turbo right? use all of the original plumbing?
josh we talked about this before......i checked out my turbo today........called the guy to get the 411 :wink: i have a super 60 compressor wheel and a gt28 turbine wheel.......he says that MY TURBO is rated to 505cfm and he says i should have no problems gettin 300hp AT THE WHEELS............according to yer needs mentioned earlier that is enuf cfm.............right? (he says that the t28 on my car is much bigger than most t28's that are out there...) except that puttin that much cfm through a TB that can only flow 208cfm is not goin to work the 62mm TB runs about 516cfm that looks like enuf to me the only thing i dont get is wether or not boost increases yer cfm capability can anybody tell me?
and according to the desktop dyno i should be runnin bout 350 hp.......but i have a question for anybody that has the dyno....what the heck does pressure ratio mean??? if ya change it it makes a huge difference in power so i want to make sure i have it right to get the right numbers
Quote from: TookyCat
There is one last thing to mention regarding our fueling. I did say there is no chip available to handle larger injectors. But I also need to mention there is ALSO no chip available that can add fuel over 15 PSI! Our ECM is speed-density which means it uses the MAP sensor to determine the current engine air flow (as opposed to a MAF (Mass air Flow meter)). However our stock MAP sensor is only 2-BAR. Meaning it can read 1 BAR of vacuum, and 1 BAR of boost. In other words after 14.7 PSI (1 BAR) Boost, the ECM is flying blind and doesn't have any idea if you are at 16 PSI or 25 PSI and it can't possibly add the respective amount of additional fuel. GM made a 3 BAR MAP sensor for the boost gauge on the MAF-equipped 1989 Turbo Trans Am which had a 16.5-PSI stock boost level, but it's not as simple as plugging in the MAP sensor into your TGP and running. Your chip has to be TOTALLY recalibrated to read the 3 BAR MAP sensor AND custom Motorola assembly code would need to be implemented. As far as I know, there is only 1 person to have accomplished this and it was Brian Green only for the '749 Syclone/Typhoon/TurboSunbird/GrandAm/Calais/Quad4 ECM. This is one of the most difficult barriers we will need to surpass. The Buick 3.8 Turbo V6 motor doesn't have this issue because it uses Mass Air. The modified Syclone/Typhoons all run 3-Bar MAP and 3-Bar chip as some of the first bolt-ons, and there aren't really any other Speed-density (MAP) turbo GM motors out there that people are modifying other than the ones I've listed. The way I plan on addressing this problem is most likely to use a fuel-cut-defeater and alcohol injection on stock injectors, which is a very crude and imprecise fueling system, but it has performed very well....
are you talking about running an adjustable overboost eliminater set to 14.7 PSI (ziener diode) as a fuel cut defeater? then use the alcohol injection with high octane for +15 PSI right? what method of wastegate control would you use? ECM controlled, grainger valve or something fancy?
btw, very nice post :)
joshua
1.)
- Need bigger turbo . ..35lbs-45lbs of air flow..2.5 and higher pressure ratio. Personaly..I am getting one of my Turbo ford t3s and upgrading it to a t4 compressor (.50a/r)and a new gen biased turbine on the .63 turbine hausing.
2.) [ ] Need T3 style exhaust crossover flange Oh shop around muflershops catologs..and stainless bellows to boot...uh $150 should get supplies for it.
3.) [ ] Need T3 adaptable downpipe flange Also on the T3 DP and such....Have you heard of the SAAB or Volvo turbo T3...They have the Swingvalve readdy for a good swap to a better turbo. They are verry compact. All you need to do is run a pipe right off the back.
4.) - Need O2 sensor relocated Anywhere close to the turbine on the DP
5.) - Need turbo oil/water plumbing to fit new turbo Oh yea...Call Classic Tube or make your own with tools off JC whitny...and silicone hoses for watter. Hydrolic hose for oil return.
6.) [ ] Need 3-Bar MAP sensor and respective 3-Bar programmed chip code OK...this is a big one.Eathier aftermarket ecm or someone crack the code to use 3bar or modify Sy/Ty ecm to run on TGP.
7.) - Need high octane fuel Eh ..make your own or buy..but some so called octane raisers rott stock fuel componets..be careful
8.) - Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost Uh...$$$$...I'll just use my cheap $35 A/F monitor with new stock O2 and monitor Knock signal with ALDL monitor.9.)
[ ] Need 4T60 automatic transmission parts sufficient to handle the power Drop in a race prepped 4t65...or swap to a race preped 3t40...no OD to fry.
10.) [ ] Need traction to utilize increased power. High presure springs on back, AA traction rating tires...G-force, Kumos., EBC moded for better launch.
New...11.) Forged pistons, 190K psi hardware, Oring for eather Copper or stock gasket. (high cylinder presures come too u know)
Also ...lets not forget...CFM ...and Lbs per minute of air...not PSI.
Also....jeff has a 3gen top end...not 2nd gen...We really need help on the exhaust ports anyway....so porting it will still help.
Quote from: TurboGTU8.) - Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost Uh...$$$$...I'll just use my cheap $35 A/F monitor with new stock O2 and monitor Knock signal with ALDL monitor.
Thus far on my WB02 I have spent $28, all I have left is my soldering equipment, wire, and a box to hold it in. (All cheap, easy to obtain) Then an o2 sensor ~$150, so I will be less than ~$210 for the entire thing. As far as a $35 A/F monitor goes, you might as well stick that money in your ear. The stock o2 sensor can only read 14.7:1 accurately. Above and below that it guesses, that's why the thing always bounces rich-lean-rich-lean. It knows it's lean but not how far lean, so it adds fuel until it sees rich then cuts fuel tell it see's lean, etc, etc, etc. You get the picture. Try and tune an ECM like that. :evil:
hey turboGTU ..35lbs-45lbs of air flow..2.5 and higher pressure ratio. .......what the HECk is pressure ratio? please tell me.................PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I NEED TO KNOW !!!!!!! AND HOW CAN I CHANGE IT??????????????? and what do we have stock?
I got this from http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_glossary.shtml
Pressure Ratio: The ratio of outlet pressure over inlet pressure, in absolute pressure values.
Pa + Po
PR = ---------
Pa
Pa = inlet (ambient) pressure
Po = outlet pressureIf you are at an ambient pressure of 13.5 psi (about 700 m ASL *above sea level*) and your boost is 19 psig *psi gauge*:
13.5 + 19
PR = -----------
13.5
= 2.41Note that an absolute boost level (i.e., one that is altitude adjusted) has a widely varying pressure ratio, depending on the ambient pressure (which depends strongly on altitude).
*Note also that the outlet pressure of the compressor is often quite a bit higher than the pressure measured in the intake manifold, due to intercooler and plumbing constrictions.
Finally, note that pressure ratio is an intermediate value, and is not particularly important in power calculations. Density ratio is the number that actually tells us how much air the engine can consume so is the factor you must consider when determining system performance (PR, along with a compressor map, should be used to determine appropriate sizing of the turbocharger, not for calculating resulting HP).
Ok Ok...I got my wires twisted...LOL.
So its Density ratio...and no entirely pressure ratio.
I assume gerrett uses 14.7 (sea level) or what not on their pressure ratio.
And...Density ratio is a number computed from pressure ratio, compressor efficiency (look at compressor maps)and intercooler efficiency(depends on IC) to provide the actual increase in pressure realized in the cylinder as a product of the compressor system.
And on the WBO2... where did you get your pc board? Lettmeguessss...the Honda WB oxygen sensor....and I also thought WBO2s plugged into a a/f meter without a "box"....or is this only for the ecm.
thanks!!!!!!!!!!!.
except now i know i cant change it :( :( :( so sad............so much heartache............ if only i could change it ........it makes a HUUUUUUUUGE dif......go to the desktop dyno and type in PR of 1......then type in 7 and see what happens........and goin from 1.8 to 3 would go from 250hp to 350!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but thanks for the site. and if anybody has tech sites like that that they want to share please do so ....perhaps we should make a new post in the appropriate forum but i think we need to post sites so that we can all share everythnig we know and make the whole community better
Quote from: TurboGTUAnd on the WBO2... where did you get your pc board? Lettmeguessss...the Honda WB oxygen sensor....and I also thought WBO2s plugged into a a/f meter without a "box"....or is this only for the ecm.
Here (http://www.diy-wb.com) is where all the info is on the project. The board is not some generic board. It is made explicitly for the project, and is $5. Yes, you heard me right. The complete part kit is $16. Again, yes, you heard me right. But, it's hard to get ahold of the guy that makes them. I put in a request for the boards about 3 months ago and he just now got back to me, but he has the stuff and is shipping now. So if anyone's interested, I suggest you goto the site above and contact him. FWIW, get two boards, that way if you screw one up, you have another. It also makes it easy to see where everything is supposed to go as you start putting stuff on, locations start getting covered up. And you are correct it is based on the Honduh 1.5 VTEC o2 sensor. As far as the last question about the box, I don't really understand. An A/F meter will hook up w/o a "box", it uses reference voltage from the sensor. The only way a WB o2, will hook up is w/ multiple inputs for the sensor. (Plus it takes a controller to make heads or tales of what's coming down the stream.) If I didn't understand your question, sorry reword it for us dummy's. :wink: HTH.
Quote from: TookyCatThe way I plan on addressing this problem is most likely to use a fuel-cut-defeater
hrmmm...fuel cut defeater...
joshua
ok as for the tiny tb i was told that with little to know fab you can use a lt1 i havent checked it out yet so take it as hearsay and on the bigger turbo if you want to make a big jump in power as im doing im going to go with svo 36# injectors and a t3/t4 hybrid a t04b and a extural wast gate im going to a tial 50mm and routing the dump to the fender as seen on super street car challenge by derick massie a guy i know here in mason on a turbo teg typeR im dumpin be hind the wheel insted of the front
http://www.jbodyperformance.com/fdptb.html
Well there's 62mm worth of Throttle body for ya.
$251 Shipped (U.S. Dollars)
http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/turbo_compressor_maps_2.html
thats another useful site.
This article all seems to revolve on density ratio...the power making formula. The formulas seem verry similar to what the TGP would run...but I don't know about the efficiency of the t25 on the tgp. I will try to plug in numbers latter with a supper 60 t3 just to see what happens...along with the stock IC....if any one can guess its cooling efficiancy.???
Air Temperature
Air temperature is an important variable because as the temperature increases the volume of air also increases. The following equation solves for ideal temperature rise, which is the temperature rise equivalent to the amount of work it takes to compress the air. Simply stated, the more you compress air (raise boost) the more the air becomes heated.
Equation
T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283
Variables
T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283 (Ideal turbo outlet temperture)
T1 = oF + 460 (Turbo inlet temperature)
P1 = 14.7psi (Turbo inlet pressure = 1 atm absolute)
P2 = P1 + desired boost (Turbo outlet pressure)
First, we need to solve for T1
T1 = oF + 460
In this example we will assume that the inlet temperature, which can also be interpreted as ambient temperature, is 80? F. Solving for T1 we get the following equation:
T1 = 80 + 460 = 540
Next, we need to solve for P2
P2 = P1 + desired boost
In this example we will assume a desired boost of 10psi.
24.7 = 14.7 + 10
The turbo's outlet pressure equals 24.7psi
We now have all the variables needed to solve for T2.
T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283
Variables
T1 = 540
P1 = 14.7
P2 = 24.7
Solving for T2
T2 = 540 (24.7 / 14.7 )0.283 = 625.43
Then take the answer for T2 and subtract 460 from it
625.43 ? 460 = 165.43? F
The ideal turbo outlet temperature equals 165.43? F, which is a raise in temperature of 85.43? F over the assumed starting inlet temperature of 80? F. Giving us a ideal outlet temperature rise of 85.43? F. (165.43 ? 80 = 85.43)
Adiabatic Efficiency
We have solved for the ideal outlet temperature of the turbo, which assumes 100% adiabatic efficiency (AE). At 100% AE there is no loss or gain of heat from the turbine but in the real world AE's normally run between 60-75% and we need to compensate for this. The following equation allows us to compensate for a less than perfect AE.
Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise / AE = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise
The basic plots diagramed in the previous article Deciphering turbo compressor maps gives us a good idea of which efficiencies the turbo will spend most of it?s time. In the image below we see two points located within the 74% range and one point in the 70% range. I decided to take the average of the three points (74 + 74 + 70 / 3 = 73) and use that as my compensated AE value. If we assume that the compressor has an AE of 73% then the outlet temperature will be 27% higher than the ideal outlet temperature (100 ? 73 = 27). Again the equation is:
Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise / AE = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise
Substituting our numbers in we get:
85.43 / .73 = 117.02? F
117.02? F is the Actual Outlet Temperature Rise, which once added to the inlet temperature (80? F) gives us the actual outlet temperature.
80 + 117.02 = 197.02? F
197.02? F is the actual outlet temperature of the turbo without using an intercooler.
Air Density Ratio
Air temperature and adiabatic efficiency have a profound effect on the air density ratio.
As the air is heated it expands, increasing its volume, but becoming less dense. The formula for solving the air's density ratio is located below.
(T1 / [T1 + Actual Outlet Temperature Rise]) x (P2 / P1) = Air Density Ratio
Plugging our numbers into the formula we get:
(540 / [540 + 197.02]) x (24.7 / 14.7) = Air Density Ratio
Stepping through the math:
(540 / 737.02) x (24.7 / 14.7) = 1.23
1.23 is the Air Density Ratio
To find out the difference in volume the heated air makes we need to compare the turbo's inlet airflow with the outlet airflow. Taking all of the variables into account we will now be able to find the turbo's actual outlet airflow in CFM by using the following equation.
Turbo Outlet CFM* x Density Ratio = Actual Outlet CFM
171.16 x 1.23 = 210.53 CFM
Outlet CFM* is the value taken from the article Deciphering turbo compressor maps.
Reviewing the first article Deciphering turbo compressor maps we see that the value of 19.84 lbs/min was given for an engine running 10psi of boost without correcting for any variables. Using the corrected formula above we find that the same 10psi yields 14.53 lbs/min, which represents a difference of 27%. This is a sizable drop in airflow from theoretical (the first article) to the more accurate (this article).
Nevertheless, the key to finding the turbo best suited for your application is to make sure that the airflow and pressure ratios intersect at a flow value no less than 60%. Also, there will most likely be several compressor maps that fit your application if this is the case it is advisable that you pick the compressor that has the lowest surge air flow limit. This will insure that you have the widest range of performance at that boost. Armed with this additional information you should be able to better calculate your turbo?s actual airflow numbers.
*Boost pressure will be the absolute value, which is 1+ what you are boosting. For example if your are boosting .7 bar add a 1 before you insert the value into the equation. By adding 1 you are compensating for the 1 bar of standard atmosphere pre-boost.
Converting CFM to lbs/min
210.53 x 0.069 = 14.53
Also on the WBO2...the box I was reffering to was the unit itself you made...that I need a pc board for. You know....with the stock O2 or Limbada "spelling" O2...the A/F meter and ecm plug into it directly...with nothing in between....but with a WBO2...you need a box.
And boost cut eliminator....the easyest is reprogramming your chip..I raised mine to 14.3. almost max for the 2bar...other methods are verry crude to your engine. I've also eliminated boost cut on top speed and top speed itself. With chip programming...you can even run more timming for race gas or adjust timming for traction out of the hole. I'm just about ready to try my chip.
I've been doing a lot more research on this lately, since I sold the Supra project and went full bore on the TGP. I've been doing a lot with the chip, and have realized that our ECM is a limiting factor in the whole power equation. Has anyone thought of going stand alone? I use the AEM EMS in my DSM, and it's incredible! I know that was a near bolt in version, but they have universal versions as ell, and can be tuned for anything. I would think with a bit of wiring(which would be a lot easier than rewriting the code for a 3-bar MAP), you could get one in. Numerous companies make them, Haltech and AEM are my fav so far.
Also, as far as the tranny goes, I was having my trans guy do some research. It seems that the 4t60 shares some common design with the 4t65 as well as possibly the corvette trans? He wasnt completely sure on that, and as soon as my Vette guy is back I'll colaborate with him.
As far as the PMIII goes, I would actually recommend doing the vacuum assist brake conversion. Think about it, even after all that work, and replacing all the lines, it would STILL cost less than the PMIII replacement. Besides that, it will give us more room, and allow for easier maintenance.
Quote from: maximageAs far as the PMIII goes, I would actually recommend doing the vacuum assist brake conversion. Think about it, even after all that work, and replacing all the lines, it would STILL cost less than the PMIII replacement. Besides that, it will give us more room, and allow for easier maintenance.
As I have asked before...what year/models have the vacuum assist that is direct bolt? 8)
Even if it's not a direct bolt on, the little bit of fab required could save a lot of future headaches. Besides, with more power we are going to want better braking, and so far what I have found is VERY inadequate.
What about a newer style ABS conversion? Those are a hell of a lot more reliable than ours, cheaper, brake much better, and you wouldn't have to loose the ABS (though I know some wouldn't mind it).
I would think converting it to newer ABS would be overly complicated. Arent the newer ABS systems controlled differently?
Don't forget that if you convert to vacuum brakes that you will lose the ability to launch under boost. My Lumina has it's original vacuum brakes and as soon as I see boost it's starts creeping away no matter how hard I push the brakes. I plan on converting to vacuum brakes on my TGP, but I have a 5 speed so my launch sucks anyways. :evil:
There's always the vacuum canisters that summit sells. People with lopey cams use them to store vacuum for the brakes.
If your check valve in your brake booster is good...you shouldn't loose any vacume in the brake booster...or see boost inside of the brake booster. My brakes have no problem. They stop on a dime. You could intall two check valves in the line to help it.
I notice that some Bonis have hydro brake boosters. Would those work?..They have ABS.
On the ECM..if people are inclined to deal with seprate units (besides the 3bar thing)...like eprom emulator, wbo2 unit, aldl scanner, bin editor....then yea...a aftermarket unit will do...but don't give the benifits of the stock unit.
The only thing the 4t60 and the 700r4(vett?)might share are the clutches. If you could swap the sun gears and clutch pack carriers...Freaking awsome...but I don't think its possible...at least without some time and skills.
The clutch packs are my biggest concern. That's what I keep burining up.
Quote from: maximageThe clutch packs are my biggest concern. That's what I keep burining up.
Yea I have worn out my 4th or 5th set. 2nd and 3rd shutters when shifting and 3rd gear is slipping again. Red Eagle makes a 7 disc clutch set for second. Don't know if they have any of the others. I guess I am going to try these.
THM 440-T4 (4T60) AND 4T60-E
POWERPACK? SECOND CLUTCH PACK
CONTENTS OF THIS CLUTCH KIT INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:
(7) FRICTIONS (.060") #62702A, (7) STEELS (.067") #62703A,
(1) STANDARD STEEL (.077") #62713K TO ADJUST CLEARANCE
This kit will correct, prevent, and reduce the complaints of premature clutch burnup or distress caused by: under capacity, low pump pressure / volume while cruising in 4th with TCC engaged and the converter in coupling mode. Remember, the second clutch is applied in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th very similar to a forward clutch used in other powertrain systems. The kit contents also offers additional durability with the later model, quicker responding engines even though Torque Management is used on some models.
Jud
Looks like that could help. My biggest issue was high speed cruising in OD. I've actually locked a couple of trannies in OD.
I looked at the Raybestos catalog...and they have Graphitic clutches for the 4th clutch pack. The look promissing. Has anyone tried those? I looked at the 4th on the 4t60 and theres no room for larger packs and little room for more clutches. They are the size of the direct clutches(3rd) on my 3t40...which fried..and it had four for some reason. If raysbestos could make the Blue friction clutches for fourth that would be awsome,,even the Red Devil clutches. But the Graphitic like I said look like the best. How ever..I do think they have the Red Devils for the other clutch packs...I would think they also make the Blue ones for custom orders. Their bands are the best...so they say...they have Kevlar lining. They supply stock band for GM, Merce, and someone else?. So I would think they know their sh!t. Heck..the make better friction meterial for the torque converters lock up clutch.
As far as poor shifting..you might have problems with your valve body. When I rebuild my transmission...Im going to run a transmission pressure guage along with a temp sensor. Bypassing the radiator and running the oil cooler by itself is said to cool down the transmission more.
Quote from: maximageI would think converting it to newer ABS would be overly complicated. Arent the newer ABS systems controlled differently?
i dont see why we couldnt, mabye Jeff M could fab up a chip to be able to controll it, there just computer controlled, and not nitrogen (why the hell did GM even bother with such expsensive, complex crap? hmm, how hard is it to have the computer to make the brakes cycle so they dont lock?)
Makes you wish we had the same PMIII the Grand natinals guys have. What gets me is they intergrated the ABS and the PMIII together instead of having the dam ABS having its own housing.
i think GM liked the Grand nationals better, lol
Quote from: TurboGTUMakes you wish we had the same PMIII the Grand natinals guys have. What gets me is they intergrated the ABS and the PMIII together instead of having the dam ABS having its own housing.
Es la una problema. You lose your ABS in a GN, you lose brakes altogether.
I just bought a gt2876r turbo from precision turbo. the salesman walked me through the charts and confirmed that with the 76 trim turbine wheel and .86 A/R turbine housing coupled with the 48 trim .70 A/R compressor i could push 400 hp to the crank with ease. all i needed was a set of 37#/hr injectors, 3-bar map sensor, and programming to accomodate the set-up. i will end up with a 2.5 press. ratio and a flow capacity of 40 lb/min
How much? those are like over a grand a peice arent they?
When you get it to run on a 3 bar, shoot me a .bin. :laugh: ;)
Quote from: TurboGTU on July 31, 2004, 12:49:23 AM
I looked at the Raybestos catalog...and they have Graphitic clutches for the 4th clutch pack. The look promissing. Has anyone tried those? I looked at the 4th on the 4t60 and theres no room for larger packs and little room for more clutches. They are the size of the direct clutches(3rd) on my 3t40...which fried..and it had four for some reason. If raysbestos could make the Blue friction clutches for fourth that would be awsome,,even the Red Devil clutches. But the Graphitic like I said look like the best. How ever..I do think they have the Red Devils for the other clutch packs...I would think they also make the Blue ones for custom orders. Their bands are the best...so they say...they have Kevlar lining. They supply stock band for GM, Merce, and someone else?. So I would think they know their sh!t. Heck..the make better friction meterial for the torque converters lock up clutch.
As far as poor shifting..you might have problems with your valve body. When I rebuild my transmission...Im going to run a transmission pressure guage along with a temp sensor. Bypassing the radiator and running the oil cooler by itself is said to cool down the transmission more.
How do you bypass the radiator? Just put another tranny cooler in front of everything? Thats an awesome idea if thats what you mean. I think its time to start looking for a nice shiny new aluminum one unless anyone could suggest a donor car to look in. I was thinking a bigger aux cooler. screw that, I almost want to ditch both and go with custom lines and shiny new cooler in front :icon_eek:.
Quote from: GangstGP on April 04, 2006, 05:08:09 PM
How do you bypass the radiator? Just put another tranny cooler in front of everything? Thats an awesome idea if thats what you mean. I think its time to start looking for a nice shiny new aluminum one unless anyone could suggest a donor car to look in. I was thinking a bigger aux cooler. screw that, I almost want to ditch both and go with custom lines and shiny new cooler in front :icon_eek:.
Yes, exactly, an external cooler....here, example from our Trans-Am
(http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/cooler.jpg)
Just get a pipe bender and bend your own lines, or cut them off just before the radiator, get some killer fittings and use hose.....and you are good to go, get a nice skinny long one and mount it just behind the front 2 grill openings, would work excellent, then mount a front mount intercooler just below it :laugh:
how exactly is the radiator sectioned off? where is the coolant and where is the tranny fluid when it's filled?
Quote from: GutlessSupreme on April 06, 2006, 01:48:31 AM
how exactly is the radiator sectioned off? where is the coolant and where is the tranny fluid when it's filled?
I would assume the radiator is on the upper part and the trans fluid runs thru the bottom because the lines hook down at the bottom don't they? The fill neck is all the way on the passenger side so I doubt it would be vertical :icon_neutral:
Are you asking about how does the tranny fluid flow through the radiator?
The fluid goes in through the top fitting snakes around in the rad, and out the bottom fitting. paid attention when I got my fluid flushed the other day ;).
Quote from: TGPilot on April 06, 2006, 11:52:12 AM
Are you asking about how does the tranny fluid flow through the radiator?
yes
Like the Gangsta said...it goes in and comes out. ;)
On the inside of the Rad is a cooling cell that is liquid to liquid in design. That is the most efficient way to cool a fluid is by using another fluid surrounding it to cool it down. Only problem is the size of the cooler in the radiator. Obviously you can not go too large with something on the inside of the rad end cap, but for the most part it works well.
Go to this webpage and it will show an OEM tranny cooler to give you an idea of what ours looks like. http://community.webshots.com/album/79730017iDGPGU
warm fluid heating up the tranny fluid? sounds like a dumb idea to me. try a fluid like cold air, or ice water maybe.
Do you understand the operating principles of an automatic transmission? Do you know what the optimum operating temperature is of an auto tranny to reduce wear and friction. An ice cold tranny will eat itself apart! :icon_cool:
Quote from: TGPilot on April 26, 2006, 08:40:34 PM
Do you understand the operating principles of an automatic transmission? Do you know what the optimum operating temperature is of an auto tranny to reduce wear and friction. An ice cold tranny will eat itself apart! :icon_cool:
Ya, theres a reason the trans fluid runs through the radiator, for faster warm ups and cooling durning idle. Like with engines, people think cooler is better, when actually wear and tear and some performance is lost if the engines too cold, not to mention gas mileage will drop.
Anyone that is out beating ANY car that is still cold and not at operating temperature is a dumb ass, that should be basic common sense to anyone that actually gives a damn about their car. To cold is bad, to hot is bad.
well since the heat generated to warm up the tranny is in the core of the tranny and not the core of the radiater; then the added cooling of another aftermarket cooler will be more than welcome.
get the tranny warm one time in the morning, should stay warm enough for errand running all day.
it was about 1400 for everything that i needed. that includes air filter, silicone connectors, turbo, actuator, and accessories. its being a pain in the ass, but it should be worth the hassle when i finish it in a couple of days. for right now im just gonna run about 9 psi to see if the tranny will hold it, plus the engine has 199,000 miles on it.
On the transmission upgrade on clutches and what not lets start a sperate thread this would be benificial to people like me and others who are more for street or just poor and want to keep the trans as tuff as possible. I'll leave it in the originator's hands as it is his call.
Quote from: Shifter23 on May 01, 2008, 10:36:20 PM
On the transmission upgrade on clutches and what not lets start a sperate thread this would be benificial to people like me and others who are more for street or just poor and want to keep the trans as tuff as possible. I'll leave it in the originator's hands as it is his call.
X2
has this T28 been mentioned? it has the right HP
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger
Quote from: redgrandprix on December 01, 2012, 02:04:31 PM
has this T28 been mentioned? it has the right HP
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger
Yes it has and if i remember right they bold right up.. im not all up to par on turbo's thow.