Anyone, anyone??? My tranny is wasted and I am really anxious to have it repaired/replaced/upgraded. Jeff's kit is unavailable, and nobody knows/wants to build a 4T60 for high performance that I can find. My best option right now is a fresh stock Grand Prix rebuild from a local TGP friend. Anything would be an improvement over my slipping, grinding unit I have now but I am slightly apprehensive about spending the $$ for a R&R (FWD tranny removal is over my head) if a stock unit may not last long behind my 12 PSI TopGun stock motor which will be recieving a turbo upgrade this spring and much higher boost levels.
I'm looking for something to hold in the 400-450 LB-FT torque range. Is there even such a thing made? I drive this car every day and I'd be lying to you all if I didn't admit I generally go WOT thru 2nd gear at least twice a day. (I let off right at the shift.) I am willing to pay to have it done right but I don't want to go overboard, keep in mind this car is only worth $3000 tops.
If there is no such thing as a transmission that will last I guess I'll have to look into buying a different vehicle and abandoning the Turbo Grand Prix project.. I don't have the time or $$$ to do FWD transmission Research & Development.
Josh
Quote from: TookyCatif a stock unit may not last long behind my 12 PSI TopGun stock motor which will be recieving a turbo upgrade this spring and much higher boost levels. Josh
Just to help keep other TGP and TSTE owners from freaking from this, who are chip'd or doing their own chip and/or upgrades, the TGP Tranny used/60-160k+ miles can last quite a long time, for sure long as owners don't do sustained high speed runs. I had a TGP owner who ran a corrected 13.56 and logged over 300 quarter mile runs in HOT Arizona weather, and never had the tranny fail. There have been some failed trannies, most from high speed runs, but any 14 to 15 year old car is going to need repairs and the TGP tranny is no different. Your tranny failing, no way for sure to know how it was used or cared for in the past before you got it right? Did you check with Level 10 as I suggested? I know someone with a TGP had a 3,400 unit that was supposed to handle 400+ hp (torque?), and was done by Level 10. Maybe manual is the way to go if you don't like or can't trust the tranny at 400+ hp levels, that is asking a lot, but if you want to run that much hp and be that fast, might have to find a GTP to get you there 8) .
Jeff M
Good luck, I've been chasing this goat for over a year(and 10 trannies!!!!!)
Well guys, this has been a major sticking point for me and has really taken the wind out of my "TGP Performance" sails, so to speak.. I don't care for manual transmissions especially on a turbo vehicle so that's out of the question. I did contact Level Ten and here is what they responded with:
QuoteDear Josh,
We do offer a pts transmission system 4t60 that is capable of 600 hp and
675 lb ft torque. It will also get rid of all the lag and the hesitation off
the start and shave off anywhere from 1/2-1 second off 1/4 mile times.
Shifts faster and delivers up to 11% more power to the wheels.
pts transmission system $2464.
pts torque converter upgrade $498.
Your core is required.
On the bright side, it sounds great that someone DOES offer a good tranny. On the down side, I would prefer to see someone else vouch for this tranny's ability to last and drive properly before I consider dropping the big coin on it. Also, $2500 WITH my core is definitely not cheap!! Plus the converter being extra. Damn at $3000 I've already exceeded the value of the car. I'd be willing to spend a fair amount to get a proper TGP tranny but this far exceeds even the cost of my "10 second capable transmission build" for my Syclone.
As far as GTPs go, I'd rather sell the TGP before I get a GTP.. way too common for my tastes.
Maximage, could you share a little of your tale(s) of woe? I would be interested in hearing the problems you've had so hopefully we can benefit and avoid the same mistakes...
Finally to clarify, I was not referring to putting in a stock TGP transmission, but rather a stock W-Body transmission that has been rebuilt with a shift kit.
Thanks,
Josh-
Performance + FWD + Transmission = Not Cheap.
There have been guys who can get basic rebuilds with R&R done for less than $1500. But not much upgrading done there. Probably a clutch kit and MAYBE a stovepipe. Certainly need much more to upgrade. Hardening of input shaft, cogs, new HD chain, OD clutch upgrade, upgrade stovepipe, new upgraded accumulator springs etc. These are just things I picked up on hanging around a guy I know with a trans shop who does work on alot of "taxi" transmissions. I would also look into any parts available for 4t's behind the caddie v8 engines. Maybe some better stuff there.
As far a level 10, I haven't heard about them lately. But arron Lephardt (??) had quite a bit of problems with their trans upgrade in his SC GTP Conversion GP. I also noticed they said PTS which is a company in california that does a lot of GN trannies. Maybe they are just sending them out/using their parts?
Just my limited input.
Chris
What do you guys do to your trannies? Geez... 180,000+ on my TGP with the original tranny. Just barely had a little slip between the 3rd to 2nd downshift. It had been neglected very bad when I got it. The fluid was almost black and the filter had goey fluid in it.
I think one factor is the torque produced by the Turbo V6 motor once you "uncap" the torque limitations of the stock boost control. GM rated the stock torque at "225@2100". What a joke, there is no way this motor makes peak torque at 2100 RPM. The LH0 N/A 3.1 V6 was rated at 180@3600 and both motors have the same cam. So they lied because the true torque number is higher and did not want to advertise that. McLaren set up the boost control to severely restrict boost below a certain RPM (~4000?) because it is a fact that high boost at low RPM = huge torque output. That's normally a great thing unless you have a woefully inadequate transmission and it appears they did; so their band-aid fix was to limit the engines low end output instead of building the transmission.
Now if you take a TopGun chip it still limits the torque but not as much as a stock chip. However if you put a manual boost controller on, it will allow as much low end torque as the engine is capable of producing, and I think this is what really pours the tranny to the coals.. I know it did for mine (my transmission wasn't 100% when I bought the car but it definitely took a turn for the worst when I tried subjecting it to 300 LB-FT+...)
Quote from: TookyCatHowever if you put a manual boost controller on, it will allow as much low end torque as the engine is capable of producing, and I think this is what really pours the tranny to the coals.. I know it did for mine (my transmission wasn't 100% when I bought the car but it definitely took a turn for the worst when I tried subjecting it to 300 LB-FT+...)
just curious - what are you using for a manual boost controller?
joshua
Quote from: malibuoldsQuote from: TookyCatHowever if you put a manual boost controller on, it will allow as much low end torque as the engine is capable of producing, and I think this is what really pours the tranny to the coals.. I know it did for mine (my transmission wasn't 100% when I bought the car but it definitely took a turn for the worst when I tried subjecting it to 300 LB-FT+...)
just curious - what are you using for a manual boost controller?
joshua
You've got me wondering now too
I'm using the www.boostvalve.com "universal" controller I bought about a year ago for my Syclone. In winter I transfer it to the TGP. It is surely the mod that's made the biggest difference in my TGP. It spools so much faster and feels so much more powerful. In fact, this is a true story, I let my Dad drive the car (he's driven it before) after I put on the boostvalve but I didn't tell him; when he returned he said "What did you do to that car??! I never drove something that was so responsive"
There's nothing magic about the Boostvalve; it's just a ball and spring "grainger valve" that does not leak signal (like a bleeder would) and it does not send ANY signal to the wastegate until the limit is reached.
Great fun, and guaranteed to put a smile on your face; but just keep in mind that making this much power may make the tranny cry uncle.
I made one of those grainger valves for my friends SR20DET powered sentra. The ball and spring setup works very well and it does help decrease lag a bit. You can get the valve from grainger for around $9, and add a couple barb adapters and you got a boost controller for under $20.
So, after one installs the Boostvalve or similar manual boost controller, what do you do with the stock boost controller? Remove it, or keep it? What does the ECM do if you remove the controller?
The stock boost controller can sit there and remain plugged into its WeatherPak harness. The computer doesn't care either way. Its nice to keep it in case you have boost controller issues and you can hook it right back up.
If you install a manual controller take it EXTREMELY cautious with the boost!!! You can easily kill your motor with this, I would recommend setting no more than 11 PSI, and leaving it there. Substantially more than that will not only be slower, but it will cause catastrophic engine failure.
Sorry it took so long to post. Been working on my house all weekend. My biggest problems for the first 3 trannies were more or less a poor choice in tranny shops. They didnt realize that the TGP trans was different, and wouldnt listen to me when i told them so. The rest of them have fell victim to my experimentation. We decided with tranny 4-6 that someone else would do them, and had a very reputable shop go for it. The first was a stock rebuild, which got taken out by a clogged cooler(forgot the cooler, wont do that again!), second stock rebuild fell victim to massacred clutches. To much power for the stock trans(my car at this point is far from stock, but since I do my own custom parts and tuning, it's staying under wraps untill done). The third is when we started letting our trans guy do some experimentation. It worked great for about a month. The rest we have done at our shop(because by this point we've seen and had our hands on this thing apart a lot!). We had a different guy we know who does custom trans work go through it with us. Unfortunately the biggest probs we've had since then are high speed runs. We cant seem to keep the overdrive gear from locking in at 120+mph runs. Otherwise, we have it down. I'll see if I can get him to do a run down of the parts we have in it now. Just don't slap into overdrive above 80mph!
just as a thought, not sure if it would work, but what if you took a tranny out of a GTP and put a better shift kit and converter in it?
Quote from: HOLYTGPjust as a thought, not sure if it would work, but what if you took a tranny out of a GTP and put a better shift kit and converter in it?
You mean out of a 2nd gen(97+) GTP? If so, that's not very feasible and would be more of a headache than it's worth being that it is computer controlled..you can only go so far with them anyways(some hold power for a great deal of time, others crap out on stock GTP's driven a littler harder than normal).
Anything "GTP" won't work directly. The 3.4 GTP's were 4t60e's and the later ones were 4t65eHD. Both electronically shifted.
There is just too much heat in overdrive. Do you have the clutches at least doubled up in OD? I would add a much larger cooler if you haven't done so already. Later 4t60TGP were not supposed to go into overdrive which is why the top speed was 128mph, top of 3rd gear.
I havent actually went to a bigger cooler as of yet. We did double up the clutch material on the OD gear, but never added additional cooling. I don't know why I didn't think of that! Hmmm..... I wonder if I can get my FMIC, larger cooler, and still keep my A/C..... I'll have to try!
BRING THE TORCH!!!
Yeah, we were seeing repeated OD failures because of heat. Going with a much larger inline cooler seems to be helping. Either the factory cooler A: can't dissipate the additional heat B: Is clogged up with debris and not as efficient C: Doesn't get enough airflow. I would guess A and C because a couple of times I checked it with my hand and it was boiling hot. The extra large fm cooler isn't as hot but still gets plenty hot. I would guess you could mount the FMIC, then a trans cooler and then the condenser. Or put the trans cooler right out front of the FMIC. If you can find a long one you could make it so it covered the mouth of the front valance. I've seen some trucks with long trans coolers so it should be available.
I've been looking through some of the aftermarket kits available, and I'm thinking of something kind of odd, but it just might work... How about replaing the stock cooler, and ALSO adding a good sized FM. Daisy chain them together, and then build some sort of scoop to pull the air through them, possibly out of carbon fiber? I'll have some left over after buiding my sub enclosure/amp shelf. I was also going to use some to strenghten the valance. It might help feed my FMIC as well. The condenser can stay behind the FMIC where it's at.
Also, I wonder if changing trans fluid to B&M Trickshift might help a bit. As of right now, we've been running stock GM.
The other thing i was thinking... My turbo is probably a big contributor to the heat, since it's right above the trans. Maybe if I wrap the turbo, to shield the trans from the heat, and maybe place a heat shield on the top of the trans, that will help some more...
Can you tell I'm tired of trans swaps?
DEFINETLY switch to Type F (Ford) tranny fluid. Every performance builder I know uses Type F. The race tranny I bought (TH350) came w/ destructions to use Type F fluid. The only difference is Type F is designed to run hotter. B&M is designed to run even hotter but it's like $7 a quart, and it doesn't provide that much more protection than Type F. I use type F in all my cars just for added heat protection.
Wow, Ford did something right?!? J/K. I actually sell B&M, so I have a bunch of it already. But the type F sounds like a good idea as well.
Plus the B&M is a cool ass blue color. 8) :lol:
Hmm...I was just thinking....Rebuilt stock trans every other month till you get tired...or shell out $3K and be done with it and spend money on mods...Just my two cents.
And why do you see it as being more than the cars value...LOL...
I think its a good investment.
I've seen peole put $3K sterio systems on cars than ain't even worth a crap.. :lol: Now thats a waste of money..... to me.
hi, i was wondering if you use a top gun 160 and a manual boost controller, won't you have problems with fuel and timing stuff because your chip regulates for a certain amount of boost...
im prob wrong, so could some one tell me why the boost controller would help if you don't really raise the boost psi
thanks,
mike
why will using a manual boost controller give you more hp if your not really raising the peek psi... and if your using one with the top gun chips won't you get problems with fuel control and time and stuff... some explain to me please
thanks mike
sorry didn't think it sent...my bad :oops: :oops:
Yea that was a lot of posting, I think someone is excited about their upcoming TGP, like all of us when the first drive happened :lol: Over the years many other turbo cars out there could use a manual boost controller, long as there was not a fuel cut when you went much over stock boost, though some guys came up with fuel cut defenders to bypass this problem, but really and most important is if the chip is tuned to run more boost and be safe :!: Back to the TGP, fuel cut happens pretty soon (9.5 psi or so) unless you have bypassed the fuel cut, not much gain here with stock chip, but if you take out the fuel cut, you can raise the boost to around 12 psi BUT need to work the rest of the chip to run safe there!! Tuned properly this adds a lot to the powerband NOT just the peak hp gain at one rpm quote. I setup my chips to ramp boost up at less than 3,500 rpms at a rate to assist in maintaining traction and good 60 foot times, then past 3,500 rpms, boost is up to max safe level where it stays till you run out of road or take your foot off. Why would anyone need more boost at less than 3,500 rpms is beyond me since once you have launched and spun the shit out of your tires, your engine will never see less than 3,500 rpms after that and your boost is locked at 11-12 psi, nothing else to benefit from a manual. THE only thing with manual is you just took out a key safety feature in the chip that protects your engine!!!
Jeff M
Quote from: Chris A
As far a level 10, I haven't heard about them lately. But arron Lephardt (??) had quite a bit of problems with their trans upgrade in his SC GTP Conversion GP. I also noticed they said PTS which is a company in california that does a lot of GN trannies. Maybe they are just sending them out/using their parts?
Chris
I wanted to bring this post back from the dead to add a little information(just in case anyone uses the search function and wanted to know about this). The "PTS" that Level 10 lists on there is not the same Performance Transmissions company in California. I contacted the company in California and they said they do not offer any parts or build any FWD transaxles.
Also, steer clear of Level 10....
Why away from level 10? Has it gone bad like yesterdays tuna sanwitch?
I've added type F to my 3t40..and I must say that thing holds like no ones buissness. Then again..I have red clutches.
I'd try some type F on the TGP..but it needs the rebuild.
Type F is a high friction fluid, and also wistands high heat. Other fluids have a "slip" affect. Think Dextron III, V. Some trannies don't like type F though..so use caution.
B&Ms trick shift is Type F.
Quote from: TurboGTUWhy away from level 10? Has it gone bad like yesterdays tuna sanwitch?
Pretty much. :wink: I've heard of quite a few people having issues with products from them(parts not holding up to the level they claim they will).
Oh yeah, I made a post in General also about our transaxles(a source for a stock rebuild anyways). I should have some information on kits, upgrade parts, etc. for us that are performance oriented as well(I'll share any/all information on come across). 8)
Any news on tranny upgrades???
No, but we would like to know which line flows away from the tranny. Anyone that gets there tranny flushed , please note the direction of flow.
Then we could place a temp. sensor on the hottest part of the tranny.
Quote from: GPChiefAny news on tranny upgrades???
Waiting to hear back from the one company I've contacted so far, we've exchanged a few emails back and forth, but now it's been a few days since I've received a reply. I'm fixing to call them and also a few other places.
TTT?
Quote from: GPChiefTTT?
I still need to get back in touch with a few places to try to price out some packages and whatnot. One company I contacted did not even bother responding back after I told them I was only gauging interest in pricing at this point. :oops:
I'll list a few places that I've found that should be able to build whatever you need within reason.
Certified Automatic Trans Svc
(616) 459-0935
842 Fulton St W
Grand Rapids, MI 49504
The transmission/transaxle chain "Certified"(an internet search will bring up a lot of locations their business chains are located at) also should be able to build performance versions of our transaxles, they offer stock rebuilds now available for order. They do not appear to be the same company I listed above(the company above does performance work for ZZPerformance, which most of us know as one of the leaders or the leader in the later model 3800 FWD community.)
http://www.dynotechperformance.com/
Dynotech is another very reputable company that has built 4T60-E's, etc. for a lot of faster FWD cars(they only list the late model Grand Prix's on the site, but contact them and they will work with you.)
Quote from: GangstGPNo, but we would like to know which line flows away from the tranny.
Well look at your radiator...there is a line coming in and a line going out to your fender mount tranny cooler. 99% of any tranny cooler flow will go in the radiator first and then out to an external cooler and back to the tranny. 8)
Quote from: TGPilotQuote from: GangstGPNo, but we would like to know which line flows away from the tranny.
Well look at your radiator...there is a line coming in and a line going out to your fender mount tranny cooler. 99% of any tranny cooler flow will go in the radiator first and then out to an external cooler and back to the tranny. 8)
Actually Kenny I was told that it's the other way around (not in all cases, but it makes sense, kinda) because if the aux cooler is TOO efficient, and the fluid temps drop too much, it could be bad. So they send it to the aux cooler, then to the rad to keep a stable oil temp going into the tranny. I'm not saying this is how it is, but was told that.
BTW, I've got someone putting a kit together for me. He's a custom converter builder for a racing company in Kentucky. He BUILDS them, and also does racing tranny builds. He's my sisters friend, he knows his shit too. I've got a custom 'verter down there right now, but the tranny is shot... So no need to pick it up. :evil: So, he's making calls and getting some shit put together for me. And I have a local mechanic that knows these trannies inside and out, and does rebuilds for $150 labor. :shock: I was told that the kit and all the extra shit (he sat there and explained to me what happens w/ the 4T60 poo's itself, and he said alot of times it's the same problem. I didn't listen, he talked for a long time.) I need to keep it from happening again, would cost about $300-$500, w/ doubling up o/d. Then my $150 labor, and he personally guarentees me this tranny to ~450 HP and Tq. The main limiting factor is the 'verter because it was built for another guy w/ just a stock 3.1 that wanted it a little more fun to drive. We'll see.
Jeff,
Please keep us informed on the Tranny upgrade...there are many of us that would buy these kits once someone verifies them. I wont be driving my TGP for a while but am very interested.
Thanks,
Thomas