Sorry, I hate to see the TGP (or any in 4T6x family) keep getting a bad rap from a few who suffered from failures (and ARE rightfully bummed). So for all the others who have not had problems, and don?t want to be concerned from all the bad rap going on, here is some positive feedback 8) shown over the last 7 years to me and the 2,000+ TGP and TSTE owners I have talked with.
1) First the oldest TGP claims; I know of 2 in the 200+k mile range both with stock tranny, turbo and engine, regular maintenance is all they have received, not sure how many owners have ever flushed or drained and done a new tranny filter!?
2) Mike Gardner?s TGP running in very hot Arizona weather and over 350 quarter mile runs low 14s to a corrected best 13.56 and no tranny failure.
3) I have been directly involved in 7 TGP tranny rebuilds of increasing upgrades and fine tuning and all still running strong with chip?d setups and 2 with 29 lb injectors and mods, no failures after 6 years.
4) With the 2,000+ owners I have talked with, fewer than 5% of all of them have had any tranny work while they owned their TGP or knew of tranny work from previous owners (how far back that goes cannot be said), not bad for any 15 year old car.
5) The 4T60 is NOT the same as the 440T4, that older tranny had a nightmare of a reputation that GM finally addressed when it was re-released as the 4T60. And many of those corrections to the 4T60 are used/retrofitted to make the old 440T4s reliable when being overhauled, and is why you see new parts showing coverage for the 440T4 and 4T60, i.e. these parts are cross-listed because the better 4T60 parts will back-retrofit to the 440T4 to correct the original weak parts or design of that older tranny.
6) There have been advancements in all transmissions including the 4T60, and the rebuild parts and understanding by the service group regarding updates and installation tips and better parts usage. There are also better hard parts, soft parts, bearing kits, seals, clutches and etc, like with ALL trannies, and these newer parts offer much greater reliability and performance handling.
7) GM/Turbo-Hydramatic had 25 updates in 1988 alone, some more that followed in the next few years until the aftermarket discovered and addressed the last design weaknesses in the 4T60.
8 ) Once again maintenance, how many previous owners changed the fluid and filter or even had the system flushed? What was those previous owners use of the tranny, harsh or easy?
9) Chris has said this, and he is tranny literate, heat kills trannies and this one is no exception. Though we have an additional tranny cooler, previous/current owner?s hard use, high speed runs, burn outs, brake torquing, hot weather, no maintenance will all take its toll on any tranny
10) Half-Shaft; I have personally only heard of one going on a TGP, and the owner said water somehow got into the CV Joint and took out the bearings, no other failures ever and believe me, in emails I hear of everyone's problems :shock: . I also personally had tested the Half-Shafts by abusing a new/under warranty TGP by spinning the inside tire to 120 mph going around a rainy corner only to have the tire hit a pot hole that cause the tire to get traction/mph dropped fast to 25, and did not break a Half-Shaft, I did split the tranny case though!
A few owners here have had repeated failures of which some found their tranny cooler blocked internally, others from less than thorough rebuilds, and others who insist they need to cruise at 100+ mph (taking out 4th gear, not the entire tranny but enough to stop it dead!). During a rebuild here in town, the tranny shop would NOT listen to my suggestions, they insisted on doing what they thought was needed, but after their tranny failing for the 3rd time under warranty, listened to my one point and THAT tranny now has been going strong after 3 years. Some of thse problems could have been avoided, some not, but I do feel for anyone having a breakdown but like I said, just needed to clear the air for the rest of the happy TGP tranny owners, many who have emailed or PM?d me lately sharing the frustration of hearing continued bashing of the TGP from Tranny to ABS Unit to Radiator to Crossover Pipe etc from a few less fortunate people here. And though it seems unnecessary to state the obvious, but to avoid possible high-level feedbacks, I am NOT saying that those who have a manual or are going to go manual are wrong, its your car and everything you do to your car is your decision and your business, best of luck to both autos and mannys!!
There is more info/postive points but its 6am and I need to get some sleep tonight?.well maybe not last night as it's morning.
Jeff M
I can see where the TGP trans could hold 14's, and maybe 13's. But pushing it any harder might result in something similar to what I have had happening. Also, I do road courses with the TGP, and it seems the road courses are a LOT harder on these transmissions. So while they may not be the worst trans in the business, I'm used to Japanese quality(such as my old Honda Prelude). These cars have an impressive handling package, and I've been able to keep up with drivers of equal skill in cars that should and would have left any other GP in the dust. So why not make the trans work with that package? I would go manual, but I have enough of those to drive. I like jumoning in the TGP, slapping it in OD, and going on some cruises.
Oh, for the record, my Prelude, Supra TT(my 93 was an auto, my 94 was the 6-speed), my 240sx, and a quite a few of my other cars saw lots of long trips with the cruise set at 90+, especially when I drive out through Montana to go to Washington. None of them ever had a problem. So I would think that this is something we could resolve on the TGP. Think about it, if a few trips at that high of a speed burn it up, what is happening on a road course?
I drove from Quad Cities, Ill/Ia to Reno, Nv. and back 3 times in '93-'94 and had the TGP at 90-110mph most of the time and never had a failure of any kind other than ign module. (About 11,000 miles and lots above 100mph. Wouldn't try it now though--no warranty!!!!)
Quote from: Jeff M
10) Half-Shaft; I have personally only heard of one going on a TGP, and the owner said water somehow got into the CV Joint and took out the bearings, no other failures ever and believe me, in emails I hear of everyone's problems :shock: . I also personally had tested the Half-Shafts by abusing a new/under warranty TGP by spinning the inside tire to 120 mph going around a rainy corner only to have the tire hit a pot hole that cause the tire to get traction/mph dropped fast to 25, and did not break a Half-Shaft, I did split the tranny case though!
Jeff M
mclaren18psi on this board blew out a half-shaft running ET streets at the track. He only posted about in briefly w/o much detail in one of my posts in the 1/4 mile section.
Quote from: maximageI can see where the TGP trans could hold 14's, and maybe 13's. But pushing it any harder might result in something similar to what I have had happening. Also, I do road courses with the TGP, and it seems the road courses are a LOT harder on these transmissions. So while they may not be the worst trans in the business, I'm used to Japanese quality(such as my old Honda Prelude). These cars have an impressive handling package, and I've been able to keep up with drivers of equal skill in cars that should and would have left any other GP in the dust. So why not make the trans work with that package? I would go manual, but I have enough of those to drive. I like jumoning in the TGP, slapping it in OD, and going on some cruises.
Oh, for the record, my Prelude, Supra TT(my 93 was an auto, my 94 was the 6-speed), my 240sx, and a quite a few of my other cars saw lots of long trips with the cruise set at 90+, especially when I drive out through Montana to go to Washington. None of them ever had a problem. So I would think that this is something we could resolve on the TGP. Think about it, if a few trips at that high of a speed burn it up, what is happening on a road course?
Road courses, ouch, good test for things, reminds me of a local TGP owner who I kept reminding him to add 3 to 4 more quarts to his tranny, told him on hard Gs the oil runs away from the tranny oil filter/pump pickup. Once he stated he felt it slip as the fluid pulled away and he ran dry that time, but still kept doing it until his tranny locked up dead. I guess he was fine with things working and did not think there was better or a need to give the tranny a chance. Gil Younger or Mr. Shift as he is known in the tranny business states to do this overfill, and gets pretty attiment about just doing it, and that in their test (mine either) there was no overflow of the fluid out of the tranny, or any internal problems from extra fluid, this has been something I have recommended to others but like many, freak about the concept of overfilling and don?t do it.
Thinking about the limits of the 4T6x family, I was just talking to a friction manufacturer who stated the 4T65E-HD in the 1,000+ hp Ecotec sport compact cars from GM is running almost stock, some upgrades as have been shown in magazines to the output shaft, a few others but hardly anything as compared to all that is left stock! They do not use 4th gear, but backing up to the TGP, like Chris says, there are some upgrades to get 4th to handle high speeds, but that much speed you are talking about on the road is illegal (besides MO :) ) and dangerous and does not save that much time getting to your destination for most of us (maybe you are an exception :roll: ), don?t get me wrong, I love speed and know like you where I can have my fun, its just not as mandatory for a tranny to have continuous 100+ mph capability over just being able to handle daily driving and strip use, but others differ on that opinion, but like I said, 4th can be upgraded a lot if that is a major desire! If you road course that is something different, but those who are wanting something from the minority have to pay for that exclusivity, and how many here will be as set on their tranny hanging on with 90+ mph all the time? Actually I think 90 is ok with some TGPs, many variables such as flooring it to nudge it up a few times, maybe keeping it there for a while showing 120 or more, hot day, AC on, never did a tranny fluid change, lots of factors, so is why I just state to people for their sake to keep out of the 100 mph and up range, at least until you do the 4th upgrade.
Yea, I like an auto, no spool down after shift (once we get a big enough turbo that might have some lag), and when cruising around with some stop and go, have nothing to do but enjoy the ride, sights, music, watching for 5oh, watching for the ?other guy? who insists on including you in his accident tendencies, no sudden nudge when I let off the gas, little things but that is just me, I do though slap it into a lower gear when getting sporty, but that is not often enough to get a manual.
As for the record/your record :lol: the same engine that is in my truck running in another truck was paced on the autobahn with the certified speedo of a twin-turbo AMG Hammer, showing 212 mph. And in my truck I have passed 120 so hard and kept going way past that I know there is some speed in there, and what its like to have it :D , so if I need to go really fast, just take the truck, sounds like you only got the TGP or is it just more fun on long cruises. My first TGP new in 1990 soon got to the 151 mph mark (under warranty :lol: ) before I backed out coming up on traffic, and know others who have beaten the 151 mark I did, speed is fun too but I prefer racing like a lot of people do 8) .
Jeff M
Quote from: mfewtrailQuote from: Jeff M
10) Half-Shaft; I have personally only heard of one going on a TGP, and the owner said water somehow got into the CV Joint and took out the bearings, no other failures ever and believe me, in emails I hear of everyone's problems :shock: . I also personally had tested the Half-Shafts by abusing a new/under warranty TGP by spinning the inside tire to 120 mph going around a rainy corner only to have the tire hit a pot hole that cause the tire to get traction/mph dropped fast to 25, and did not break a Half-Shaft, I did split the tranny case though!
Jeff M
mclaren18psi on this board blew out a half-shaft running ET streets at the track. He only posted about in briefly w/o much detail in one of my posts in the 1/4 mile section.
Yes I knew of it and why it happened enough to not feel it should of been added to the post I did above 8) Very unique circumstances......before the actually time it decided to finally let go :roll: meaning things can wear then break, not always just break :shock: .
Jeff M
My TGP actually replaced my Supra as my toy. I would've kept both, but we have a baby on the way. My daily driver is my 90 Talon TSI, and my 88 Accord(getting ready for a b-series swap). Both of those are manuals. The TGP is more for pure driving enjoyment. Pntiac was right with the driving excitement ad campaign. These cars are great! I do like an occasional jaunt to 120+, though. And where I live, the only thing I'm really endangering when I do it is myself and the local wildlife. I have a couple roads with some nice windys and some LONG straight aways, with no houses and no intersections. So it does see some fun drives and higher speeds.
What options do ihave to strenghten 4th? I know I can add soe material, but what do you suggest Jeff?
Quote from: maximageMy TGP actually replaced my Supra as my toy. I would've kept both, but we have a baby on the way. My daily driver is my 90 Talon TSI, and my 88 Accord(getting ready for a b-series swap). Both of those are manuals. The TGP is more for pure driving enjoyment. Pntiac was right with the driving excitement ad campaign. These cars are great! I do like an occasional jaunt to 120+, though. And where I live, the only thing I'm really endangering when I do it is myself and the local wildlife. I have a couple roads with some nice windys and some LONG straight aways, with no houses and no intersections. So it does see some fun drives and higher speeds.
What options do ihave to strenghten 4th? I know I can add soe material, but what do you suggest Jeff?
Family comes first, know that! My feelings as well on the ride :D , fun to open it up and enjoy the well designed Pontiac Excitement we do have, other than a little heavy feeling, its very comfortable, solid and responsive without beating you to death, which is nice on long hauls 8) . And as I recall getting up to 151, there was really hardly any wind noise, or any change in the steering feel as it still felt solid and planted, know a few older Vettes that got squirrelly as the front end lifted past 120. I wish I had the roads you have, not that far here in MN, need to someday work on my truck and slap in the spare gray HUD I have so I can see what those top speed readings are like, but something funny, aftermarket tranny suppliers offer a kit to allow 4th gear in a 700R4 at WOT :lol: , does not seem to be a priority for GM to make their autos this way :roll: . As for a 4th gear upgrade, I have three areas now and working on a forth that is supposed to come out end of this month, then test it on my TSTE to confirm it for me as I am damn picky on anything I sell or recommend :!: .
Some info just released from DANA, Clevite Engine Parts Division, Victor Reinze Gaskets :roll: Bulletin Number 40.4.256 says they have come out with a proper head gasket shim setup to allow either raising or lowering the compression ratio when doing head swaps on a Honda 1.5 and 1.6 VTEC and non, circa 1992-1995 and 1998-2000, thinner to run all motor, or lower for the blower :twisted:
Jeff M
Jeff, are you saying I need to mod the Honda engine...lol I'm thinking of a nice build, something decent for every day, but all motor.. But hten I got smart and thought about BOOST!
Quote from: maximageJeff, are you saying I need to mod the Honda engine...lol I'm thinking of a nice build, something decent for every day, but all motor.. But hten I got smart and thought about BOOST!
:lol: Well, if all the bills are paid and the family fed, any extra would be fun to stoke up the Honda, if its of interest to you. Not to go too far off topic (too late) but these damn Hondas already have a stock MAP sensor good for reading 11 psi :? and tables to tune there :shock: and exh manifolds ready for an internal wastegated turbo, Hondata offers super sweet tuning software, and you are fit to go (enough fueling too). Sure is easy to do these up, but like you said, all motor is good, plenty of fast ones all motor, seen another 10 second on one :roll: show-offs 8) though you don't need one of those, anything above that is all fun!!
Jeff M
I got $20 says I can run any honda off the road (no kids, TGP, or family involved). 19 hour concrete pour :bad-words: , union carpenter, 8 beers. :drinking: sorry Jeff.
Quote from: maddux31I got $20 says I can run any honda off the road (no kids, TGP, or family involved). 19 hour concrete pour :bad-words: , union carpenter, 8 beers. :drinking: sorry Jeff.
:lol: That reminds me of more major stupidity GM shows all the time (not saying you're being stupid :lol: ) and in their commercials, like when the new Chevy TrailBlazer (whatever the fk they call it now, don't care) on a dirt road with a huge ass dump truck on its tail, and GM basically says you have power to take this brute, yea, zero to sixty in 2 minutes :lol: BUT, and this is the best part, since these new Chevy trucks spend more time breaking down, that big ass dump truck
IS going to catch up, and squash it like the shit metal it is :twisted: .
And in case you did not know, I am an American car owner, 5 GM cars/trucks, only the wife rides over the ocean :)
Jeff M
A lot of the new GM's just have issues. But to be honest, I would STILL buy a GM before another friggin VW!!
go testdrive an expensive VW...
You mean like a $100K W12 VW? :wink:
We did. Audi. They have the same issues. Actually, the sales guy we deal with all the time talked to us about going back to GM (the same dealership sells Pontiac and Buick and Caddilac as well). He aid they have a lot of people coming back to say they have major electrical issues. Even the Toureg, and Audis flagship S4.
Well, I can't give you a 100% answer, but I was lead to believe by the P/O that the tranny and turbo in my new TGP have never been rebuilt. They both are in perfect shape and the tranny shifts better than my Cutty. I don't know how much this will help the discussion at hand, but it's what I believe to be true, also, my car has 175, 000 miles on it.