Ever since I got my TopGun chip I have not been able to run more than 10psi boost. It would never peak more than about 11psi and that was on very rare occasions. I figured out after zip-tieing my wastegate closed that it was my wastegate actuator. I drilled it for a spring and put a spring in there. I keep shortening the spring more and more but I am still having boost problems. When I first go WOT the boost will go to ~15psi, then it will slowly drop to 10psi (it gets down to 10psi at about 4500rpm), then it will stay steady at about 10psi until it shifts...then it goes to about 13psi and quickly goes back to 10psi. When it shifts to 3rd it seems to stay at right about 10psi. I have turned my boost controller up and shortened the spring a lot of times and just can't figure out why the boost isn't going up. The peak boost keeps getting higher (the more I shorten the spring the higher it peaks at when I first go WOT...at first it was ~13psi now its a little over 15psi according to my autometer boost gauge)
I just don't understand why I can't keep 11-12psi steady. Thats all I want to run and I don't really want to peak at 15psi, that isn't doing any good. I just figured the extra 1-2psi would help. Do I just need to go shorter with the spring??? Is the chip pulling the boost for some reason???
I am confused any help would be awesome.
Thanks,
Shawn
Hate to be bummin you but a lot of times 10 psi is about all you get in warmer weather, typical you will see 11 to 12 psi in cold months when the air is denser and it packs in more giving higher boost. If you or others look at the wastegate duty cycle on a scan tool it will show 100% meaning the chip/ECM is asking for all the boost the wastegate spring will give. Messing with the wastegate can help but as you found, risks running too much boost. I have also tuned the chip to be safe at 12 psi and up but not for making any more power there :!: :!: I had to abusive test my TGP at 12 psi and up adjusting the timing and fuel to get safer values to keep things from breaking should someone go there, though there is no guarantee as it?s all I can do with the chip. There are so many other variables it would take an hour to write them all down (then in a month would have to write them all down again for the next person asking this), variables such as turbo condition, clocking of the 2 housings, catalytic converter condition, and that reminds me, the tests I did with no mufflers had my peak boost level drop, I lost power but the stock turbo is not restricted by the stock exhaust. Anyways, dirty K&N Air Filter, piston rings leak from mileage, lots of factors makes one TGP have 10 psi and other 11 or 12 (aside from the cold temps) and some that run 15.3 chip?d and others 14.2 chip?d, but brand new TGPs tested from 15.3 to 16.3 times so variations happen even with brand new TGPs, and just seen a test of the new GTP with 260 hp and 280 lb ft doing a.....15.0 and a 6.9 zero to sixty, when the 205 hp TGP did a 15.3 and a 7.0 best times, just the facts!!!
Jeff M
But I don't think its just the temperature, unless the chip pulls boost for some reason with higher temps. In the morning when its 50* outside I still only get 10psi...in the afternoon when it is 70-80* out I get the same. I turn my boost controller up a lot, and I still don't get more than 10psi steady...thats just weird. I can zip-tie the wastegate shut and get a lot of boost...so I'm wondering if I should keep shortening the spring until boost goes up to 12psi or if maybe there is some reason why the boost is being pulled. Its just weird that it peaks so high but yet holds steady at 5psi less than peak boost.
I'm not trying to run crazy amounts of boost, just 1-2psi more than I am now. I ran a 14.69 on 10psi boost with a crappy 60', so I think if I can get the boost to 12psi and get a decent 60' it can go 14.2 with the few mods it has now.
And about those new GTP's...I have beaten a couple of them at the dragstrip in our 2 door chipped TGP. They were confused and I was laughing.
Shawn
Well those are not bad time, not sure why anyone (no one is other than you :shock: ) would complain :lol: . I just did a G-Tech Pro run tonight/early this am I guess, and got a consistent 14.6 and a 6.0 zero to sixty, then backed it up with a 14.5 and a 5.9 zero to sixty, AND it would have been better if my second gear was not slipping, the recorded run verse G-Forces showed a huge drop after 2nd gear shift, all this with a steady 10 psi too and my data logger showing the commanded wastegate duty cycle at 100%/full boost signal from the chip, but what the wastegate is doing is a seperate issue. But back to your boost, colder than 50 degrees and warmer than your temps, but again, not all TGPs and TSTEs are the same with anything! Still you need to see if the ECM is commanding more boost, if it is then the wastegate is off a little, again nothing is an exact piece in a production car, you can thread your wastegate to get it to run 11 to 12 psi but make sure you 1) test at the track to see if you are faster, but most important: 2) run a data logger to keep an eye on knock retard??.you should not see it since I tune these chips to be very safe, I just always recommend it to anyone who is playing with the boost!!!!
So, once you get a 14.4 or 14.2, going to be happy for a while :? :lol:
Jeff M
But...shouldn't the chip not even be allowing more the 13 PSI or so? As most of you know, my TSTE has had overboosting issues since day one. It would hit cut off, and send my face into the steering wheel in the process. I've swapped computers, but that doesn't appear to be the issue. I put a TG 160 chip in. Now when it hits cut off, it just does this stuttering thing (like a governer on the top speed of a rental car). I guess my point is, shouldn't the chip not even be allowing you to get that much boost in the first place? :?
On a side note, I still have to run through all the vacuum lines, full tune up, etc. but...would a clogged cat cause the car to be seeking more than 13 PSI? I wish this damn weather would cooperate so I can actually get to work on these things (live in an apt., no garage). We literally had 6 non-rainy days last month. :x
Well its not a ?but? for this guy :lol: . Some previous versions of the chip had a higher boost cut, since there were quite a few TGPs I tested chips on way back, that would boost spike for a second after hitting WOT, (as said before the timing is safe in high boost areas just no extra power), but over time I found some ways to balance out the boost spikes using the chip?s PID boost controlling system. As for yours, just need to know one thing.......was your ?boost cut? then and now giving you a SES Light afterwards??? If not then not a ?boost cut?. I would say the stuttering is ignition related, maybe fueling if the x-pipe is cracked, when it stops raining, check your plugs but for sure, save up for a new set maybe some wires too. I have seen way too many K&Ns in need of a bath too (peeeyouuuu) :lol: .
Jeff M
QuoteI guess my point is, shouldn't the chip not even be allowing you to get that much boost in the first place?
Well, the chip doesn't allow 15psi constant (I actually saw a spike of 16 today), however from what i have noticed, it seems to allow it for a very short period of time. I know that the cut is at 13psi on this chip because I have hit it when it stayed high for about a second. But when it hits peak boost it falls off quick enough to not hit the boost cut or something...thats what it seems like it is doing anyways.
I know that 14.69 isn't a bad time for what the car has done to it, however it ran a 14.96 before I put the chip in it. So not even 3 tenths with chip is pretty shitty IMO. Its only getting 2psi more than it did before. I mean, the car drives much better, doesn't stall when I take my foot off the gas and it IS quicker, no doubt about it, but I'm not satisfied with that little of a gain. I was hoping to gain 5-7 tenths and only got half that.
Shawn
It is stated that the chip will give most TGP and TSTE owners an on average mid 14 car, you have this, most all of these cars (obviously not yours) ran 15.3 to 16.3 stock so that worked out to about .7 tenths gained even more with the chip! The other cars that ran 15.0 or a little better stock were just faster engines, seen one here that stock would take mine stock, chip?d would take mine chip?d, and his had almost 100k more miles than mine, and I had all new injectors, plugs, wires, sensors etc, there are variations in all cars stock and chip?d!!! IF you were to run a boost gauge and note the psi you ran at stock, I bet you would find it was ramping up faster and running near Boost Cut, this takes you closer to the setup of an upgraded chip, this is a variation that was working in your favor. There are also variations in track times, weather is the most, heat soak from sitting in line is another, I could go on but I won?t/not worth it.
I know I would have had my hopes up too for the chip to take your faster car into the low 14?s :D , but if not I would NOT have been pissed, and I would NOT say it?s ?shitty?, besides, myself and no one is about to give much more help to that sort of reply coming from someone :evil: , I know I am done :lol: .
Jeff M
I'm not trying to say your chip is junk or something, because honestly I think it is THE best thing you can do to these cars...if not I don't think I would have two of them. It fixed pretty much every driveability problem I have ever had with the car, it gets better gas mileage, and it is faster. It gets more boost, and gets it quicker. I can stomp the gas at 20mph and have the tires break loose, and it chirps them from 1st to 2nd. Definately an improvement...and what it did for me was well worth the $275. I was just hoping that it would do a little more than it did thats all. I just didn't see any reason why with 12psi instead of 8 that the car wouldn't gain that much time...it gained about half of what I expected it to, and that is (IMO) because it gained half the boost I expected it to. If I could just somehow figure out why it won't push more than 10psi steady than I think the car would go as fast as i would like it to. Which is why I posted here. I just want to figure out how to get 11-12psi instead of 10, if I can't do that I'll try to run as fast as I want in other ways...I was just thinking this would make it easier. I don't even want to run that much boost on the street, 10psi is plenty on the street, especially for the tranny, I always dump in 100 octane at the track to rid of any possible KR, so I don't think knock would be a problem with 12psi at the track.
Thanks for all the help so far, it HAS helped.
Shawn
Quote from: Jeff MAs for yours, just need to know one thing.......was your ?boost cut? then and now giving you a SES Light afterwards??? If not then not a ?boost cut?. I would say the stuttering is ignition related, maybe fueling if the x-pipe is cracked, when it stops raining, check your plugs but for sure, save up for a new set maybe some wires too.
Well, I've got brand new coils, ICM, rapidfire plugs, and just some generic wires I was going to use on the AWD, but I'll use on the TSTE for now. I also have a set of cleaned, and flow tested injectors to go in it, plus I'm just going to replace the FPR, all vacuum hoses, radiator hoses, and lines of every sort just for the hell of it while the plenum is off. It's just a matter of getting a break in this "Chicago gone Seattle" weather we've been having. And now, to top things off, the PMIII has developed a leak on me.
The SES hasn't come on in the car once, yet, even with all its driveability issues. I don't know if it's an ignition issue, though, since it only does it when my foot is completely planted. If I move my foot back even a hair, it smoothes out. It's only at the very peak of boost that it's doing it, thus why I thought it was some sort of boost or fuel cut-off issue. It did it with and without the K&N, it did it with and without your chip (just a different feel now, as I described). Like I said, I haven't gotten to anything on the car yet, so I'm not to worried. If after I fix everything up it's still doing it,
then I may start panicking :shock:
Quote from: dbtk2I'm not trying to say your chip is junk or something, because honestly I think it is THE best thing you can do to these cars...if not I don't think I would have two of them. It fixed pretty much every driveability problem I have ever had with the car, it gets better gas mileage, and it is faster. It gets more boost, and gets it quicker. I can stomp the gas at 20mph and have the tires break loose, and it chirps them from 1st to 2nd. Definately an improvement...and what it did for me was well worth the $275. I was just hoping that it would do a little more than it did thats all. I just didn't see any reason why with 12psi instead of 8 that the car wouldn't gain that much time...it gained about half of what I expected it to, and that is (IMO) because it gained half the boost I expected it to. If I could just somehow figure out why it won't push more than 10psi steady than I think the car would go as fast as i would like it to. Which is why I posted here. I just want to figure out how to get 11-12psi instead of 10, if I can't do that I'll try to run as fast as I want in other ways...I was just thinking this would make it easier. I don't even want to run that much boost on the street, 10psi is plenty on the street, especially for the tranny, I always dump in 100 octane at the track to rid of any possible KR, so I don't think knock would be a problem with 12psi at the track.
Thanks for all the help so far, it HAS helped.
Shawn
I apologize for getting taken by your "shitty" word :lol: . I can understand you much better now 8) I need to get back to the garage, deadlines for all the work going on but will get back in more detail later but can right off mention that running 100 octane will reduce your power (I know your intentions were good 8) ) the chip is tuned for 92 so much more than that will not do you any good, actually less good, might be something for you to try next time, and cross our fingers!!!
Later, thanks again for clearing things up, keep a even keel on things, it all works out in the end.
Jeff M
Quote from: 6000STE/AWDQuote from: Jeff MAs for yours, just need to know one thing.......was your ?boost cut? then and now giving you a SES Light afterwards??? If not then not a ?boost cut?. I would say the stuttering is ignition related, maybe fueling if the X-PIPE IS CRACKED when it stops raining, check your plugs but for sure, save up for a new set maybe some wires too.
Well, I've got brand new coils, ICM, rapidfire plugs, and just some generic wires I was going to use on the AWD, but I'll use on the TSTE for now. I also have a set of cleaned, and flow tested injectors to go in it, plus I'm just going to replace the FPR, all vacuum hoses, radiator hoses, and lines of every sort just for the hell of it while the plenum is off. It's just a matter of getting a break in this "Chicago gone Seattle" weather we've been having. And now, to top things off, the PMIII has developed a leak on me.
The SES hasn't come on in the car once, yet, even with all its driveability issues. I don't know if it's an ignition issue, though, since it only does it when my foot is completely planted. If I move my foot back even a hair, it smoothes out. It's only at the very peak of boost that it's doing it, thus why I thought it was some sort of boost or fuel cut-off issue. It did it with and without the K&N, it did it with and without your chip (just a different feel now, as I described). Like I said, I haven't gotten to anything on the car yet, so I'm not to worried. If after I fix everything up it's still doing it, then I may start panicking :shock:
First was wondering if I could get us an answer on crossover being stock, I know it's more money but at least you would have a reason for the power stutter 8) When you take your foot off a little, you take the chip out of PE/Power Enrichment, which makes me think along with the excess fuel the pipe has caused your chip to learn might be causing your problem, maybe check for black smoke out the pipes when this happens :!: :!: . Sounds really good you are just going to go do the injectors and FPR and such, I do those things soon as I can afford them, less hassels later, and more chances of power now :D . Since you got no SES then we can pass on the boost cut, stock chip or not. Let us know how it goes!!
Jeff M
dbtk2, thanks for waiting, out of the garage now, subframe in, Scoche sound deadener applied to the firewall, wirelooms run, more to go, few other things but I need a break (forget sleep, do that when I die!).
Aside from variables mentioned, there is a chance the turbo is not clocked properly, compressor side relative to exhaust side. Since the wastegate is hooked to both, you can rotate the compressor side clock-wise to increase the tension on the wastegate spring to raise the boost. 12 psi is set for street gas, but with any TGP, if you are boosting and into it, but start to see the boost level drop, like from 10-12 down to 8 or less, there is knock happening, a saftey feature in the chip when it senses 3 or more degrees of knock retard for a period of time, faster if the knock is worse, but not a safe-all level setting meaning it won't keep all knock under control, but it goes a long way, more than any aftermarket boost controller!! Back to clocking, just take the compressor outlet hose off, stick the wooden end of a hammer into the turbo outlet and lift up to rotate 8) , just check you don't clock yourself into tomorrow :lol: . Borrow a scan tool, then test these settings as the track or even around you area where there is a empty road with a 50 or more mph speed limit.
I think that's it, but the thinker is blinking and needs to be turned off, later!
Jeff M
You say that the chip will pull a little boost if it senses KR. So this could possibly be my problem? I'm thinking maybe I will wait until I am almost out of gas a throw in a few gallons of 100 octane and see if boost goes up. Then after that I will start looking into things. I just have a feeling that the car is getting knock. I'm sure you have experienced KR...I know I have definately experienced it in many L67 cars...and you can feel it when it happens (or at least I can)...you can tell the engine isn't running as well as it could be and the car just kind of bogs down. It seems like at some times I am experiencing this in my STE so I am interested to see if it is getting KR or not. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to scan the car for KR while I had access to a Tech 1...I won't have access for one for probably 3 or 4 months now. Anyone know what I can get a scan tool for cheap?, I definately should get one. I have an OBD II scantool, but thats not of much help with this car.
Thanks
Shawn
Quote from: dbtk2You say that the chip will pull a little boost if it senses KR. So this could possibly be my problem?
No no, read the details again, I stated down to 8 psi or less like 6, even 4 psi if the knock is still happening/as the boost is taken down, you have a steady 10 psi so not an issue, especially since you ran some extra 100 octane at the track and still had 10 psi. Move on.
Quote from: dbtk2I'm thinking maybe I will wait until I am almost out of gas a throw in a few gallons of 100 octane and see if boost goes up. Then after that I will start looking into things. I just have a feeling that the car is getting knock. I'm sure you have experienced KR...I know I have definately experienced it in many L67 cars...and you can feel it when it happens (or at least I can)...you can tell the engine isn't running as well as it could be and the car just kind of bogs down. It seems like at some times I am experiencing this in my STE so I am interested to see if it is getting KR or not. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to scan the car for KR while I had access to a Tech 1...I won't have access for one for probably 3 or 4 months now. Anyone know what I can get a scan tool for cheap?, I definately should get one. I have an OBD II scantool, but thats not of much help with this car.
Thanks
Shawn
Well, like I said, knock will show from the boost gauge dropping off in boost and dropping and dropping. Good to check other things, not sure how many miles you have on the fuel pump and filter!! Just the same things you would do to get it running proper stock, before you expect it to kill mod'd or chip'd 8). Have someone drive it and you follow to see if you beltch black with a long WOT run, there will be some maybe carbon, a little from the AE and when PE kicks in, but something you can do without a scanner. AND, do a search for scan tools, there are a number of cheap and free ones, most require a laptop, running with either DOS of Windows 95 or 98, some for 2000 or XP but will still run on an older operation system, no speed or awesome laptop needed for these systems so don't sweat that.
That about covers it, settle down and just think things through, give yourself and the car time to come around, once you get to know your engine's workings/parts and locations and such, it becomes a lot more fun (and faster) at ever working on things again, or when you want to clean up, polish, or mod things later.
Jeff M
QuoteNo no, read the details again, I stated down to 8 psi or less like 6, even 4 psi if the knock is still happening/as the boost is taken down, you have a steady 10 psi so not an issue, especially since you ran some extra 100 octane at the track and still had 10 psi. Move on.
Ok, so when it pulls boost it pulls it down to lower than 10psi...so KR isn't the problem. When I ran the car at the track that was before I put an additional spring on the wastegate...I could pull the vacuum lines off the turbo and it would only get 10psi because thats all the stronger the spring was...now I can pull it off and hit high amounts of boost, so the wastegate should be able to stay closed enough for more boost...before it couldn't.
The fuel filter has less than 8k on it. The guy that owned the car before me was having problems with it not running and stalling A LOT...so he put a new fuel filter in it and fixed the problem (thats what he told me anyways), and he only had the car for a couple thousand miles...and the fuel filter looks new, so I'm pretty sure he wasn't lying. I can't remember for sure but I thought he said something about replacing the fuel pump too, but I'm not sure about that. But I know at least the filter is pretty new.
From what I have been told from friends following me is that when I go WOT a cloud of black smoke comes out at first and then goes away. (and I'm pretty sure thats normal)
I have an OBD II scantool that I have to use a laptop for, so I have the laptop and everything...just need the scantool. I guess I will do a search and see what I can come up with. I know that will help me more than anything. I use the OBD II scantool OFTEN, usually at least once a week...I actually used it today, so I'm pretty used to it, just don't have one for OBD I...time to do some looking.
Shawn
Wait a sec here.... I'm confused about something, Shawn you indicate you are running a BOOST CONTROLLER in addtion to Jeff's TG160 Chip... What good is the boost controller doing for you when boost is regulated by the CHIP? (Fuel cut off at past max boost? I know the TG160 Chip is reprogrammed for higher boost.. So why the need for an additional Boost Controller? Am I missing something here :?: :?:
Many people run a boost controller because they feel that it will help to max out the boost and "regulate" it better. I have never had a manual boost controller so I can not attest to one...but then I have never had an issue with the stock wastegate controller on any of my vehicles. I am sure Jeff will agree with me that only allowing the stock boost control device is the way to go as he has stated and I have found many times that when you get knock you don't always hear what can be damaging. If you have a manual boost controller and you get a tank of shitty gas you will get damaging knock and never know it until it is too late. Now if you are constantly monitoring knock with a data-logging device and adjust the manual controller to reduce boost...thus reducing knock you will be good. But without a data-monitoring device...then relying on a properly working stock boost controller and knock sensor is the only way to go...IMHO 8)
Quote from: Gearhead43Wait a sec here.... I'm confused about something, Shawn you indicate you are running a BOOST CONTROLLER in addtion to Jeff's TG160 Chip... What good is the boost controller doing for you when boost is regulated by the CHIP? (Fuel cut off at past max boost? I know the TG160 Chip is reprogrammed for higher boost.. So why the need for an additional Boost Controller? Am I missing something here :?: :?:
Well, yes you are missing something, but just because I never said what it was, I am using a boost controller, however the reason for it is probably different than you think. When I was running the stock chip I was playing around with things to try to get the turbo to spool quicker off the line and to try to get a little more get-up-and-go out of it and figured out a way to modify the stock boost controller to be adjustable, this way I could lower the amount of vacuum going to the wastegate so that I wouldn't get as much of that programmed turbo lag off the line. It also put the boost up just slightly to 8psi. It probably wasn't a good idea now that I look back on it, but it seemed to work good (it probably helps that I always run 94 octane on the street), and the car ran pretty good. However, seeing that I modified the stock boost controller to be adjustable, when I put the chip in it I couldn't just take the boost controller off, because it is the stock boost controller, so I turned it down all the way (back to stock), because I knew that more boost than what the chip gives is stupid. But when I was getting a low boost condition I turned the boost controller back up as an experiment to see if I could get the boost back to where I thought it should be with the chip (11-12psi)...and I saw no more boost. So I turned it up all the way (no vacuum, just like pulling the lines off) and still got no more boost. Pulled the vacuum lines off just to make sure and still no more boost. So I came to the conclusion my wastegate spring was weak, so I put on a new one and I get more peak boost now, but still the same amount of steady boost, and that is where I am now.
Hopefully that explains it all.
Shawn
QuoteAND, do a search for scan tools, there are a number of cheap and free ones, most require a laptop, running with either DOS of Windows 95 or 98, some for 2000 or XP but will still run on an older operation system, no speed or awesome laptop needed for these systems so don't sweat that.
I have been looking and I cannot find a scantool for less than about $210. I was hoping I could find one for like $100 or less. If you could get me a link or something to one that is like $100 or less that would be awesome.
Shawn