So we finally got all the stuff and the built 3.1 into the TGP and ready to go, only to run into this problem after everything else goes nice and smooth......
Anyways here is some more info on the install
Jeff M Crossover
Delco O2 Sensor *probably destroyed now*
New Delphi 24 lb/hr injectors
Rapid Fire plugs
New 2-Bar MAP
New TPS
It is running rich at idle and has a slight haze of smoke out the exhaust, running rough, in gear idle is pretty bad and has a bad hesitation opening the throttle and take off with more than 30% throttle or so and it bogs and won't get going very fast. If and when it does get going, it won't build boost with the wastegate hose hooked up. But this I think I know what, and should have nothing to do with fuel...
I pulled the O2 sensor and it was black, pulled the hose to the MAP sensor and it was really putting out the black smoke then. Any ideas on what we should look at? The Fuel Rail and Pressure Regulator both we working when removed from the engine it was on.
I changed TPS to the old one that was on the car running fine, along with O2 sensor that was running fine, also changed the IAC to no help, swapped MAP sensor to the old one, nothing, starting to run out of ideas?
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Maybe check the plugs? Make sure the rapidfire's aren't platinum.
QuoteMaybe check the plugs? Make sure the rapidfire's aren't platinum.
That was my first thought, second thought was the New Delphi 24 lb/hr injectors... maybe running too rich
Could be ignition, sounds like a bad coil. Get one known good one and replace one at a time.
As far as the injectors I ran Delphi 26# injectors for a while and now have 30#, neither one had an effect with idle.
Good luck
Jud
Update:
Swapped in stock injectors and seems to have fixed the problem. The registration expired so I can't really be out driving it again until we get that taken care of. It suprises me that 24 lb/hr injectors would cause that, I figured the computer would be able to compensate for that? hmm?
You don't have the Jeff M TG chip?
That might help a lot
Quote from: Gearhead43You don't have the Jeff M TG chip?
That might help a lot
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that, of course I do, that was the first thing I got and now with this new engine it hasn't been responding very well to it....
Since its kinda hard to carry on what has been posted on the other message board, here is a link to the most up to date stuff since its a more active forum
http://www.gmfwd.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=436
As a cliffnotes, the injectors seem to have fixed the fuel problem and its running better, but still idling pretty poorly and stalled a couple times after coming to a stop. The bigger concern now is the boosting problem, its not boost very well at all, we had to slightly bend the wastegate actuator arm to fit the oil feed line we put on, and not sure if it is cause a problem, but with the wastegate line to the boost controler plugged in, only seeing about 2-3 PSI of boost, and even with it unplugged only about 8-9 PSI surely nothing like the stock engine was running for sure....
As for the arm, here is what I'm talking about....
(http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/P1010012_small.jpg)
Either way, it definitely has some bugs that need to be worked out before its going very far....
First off check all of you vacuum sorces on the throttle body (the four on top and the one on the side that runs to the vacuum modulator).
Second if and only if you have the tool check the fuel pressure on the fuel rail (it should be between 35-45).
Third check the computer (underneath the dash is a conector take a jumper wire to the two leads on the upper right side of the connector) turn the key on but don't start it and count the times the Service Engine Soon light flashes (1 blink pause 2 blinks ect....) and that will tell you if you have any bad engine parts. :D
Quote from: SpeedDemonFirst off check all of you vacuum sorces on the throttle body (the four on top and the one on the side that runs to the vacuum modulator).
Second if and only if you have the tool check the fuel pressure on the fuel rail (it should be between 35-45).
Third check the computer (underneath the dash is a conector take a jumper wire to the two leads on the upper right side of the connector) turn the key on but don't start it and count the times the Service Engine Soon light flashes (1 blink pause 2 blinks ect....) and that will tell you if you have any bad engine parts. :D
I think everything except for the boosting problem is fixed now.....Oh yeah, oh and did the code reader, showed up as passing so I don't know, we ordered a new boost solenoid, $17 so may as well....We got it registered so I can drive it around now and let the computer learn some....
I did fix the idle by adjusting the idle screw "Idle speed computer controlled, adjuster sealed from factory and cannot be adjusted" rrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhtttttt.....not anymore.... :P
A bent wastegate actuator arm = misaligned diaphram = minimal to no boost.
Having to manually adjust throttle body for better idle = IAC not working properly.
24lbs injectors without properly tuned MEMCal = Rich at all RPMs.
8)
Something else is wrong. :roll: Injectors won't make a difference unless there faulty. No boost won't chang the idle characteristic. He's got something wrong where it isn't burning the fuel . I still go for ignition.
The 17 you spent was most likley for nothing. The solonid is one of the eaist parts on a TGP to check out. If you can't blow through it with out the connector on then put 12v and a ground and you can blow through it. All it is is a little ole solenoid that the ECM grounds when the MAP sensor tells it to.
Good luck
Jud
Quote from: TGPilotA bent wastegate actuator arm = misaligned diaphram = minimal to no boost.
Having to manually adjust throttle body for better idle = IAC not working properly.
24lbs injectors without properly tuned MEMCal = Rich at all RPMs.
8)
A. We are currently looking for the fitting, or going to make the fitting we need to fix this problem.
B. IAC working properly, AC turned on, Idle goes up....It was already unsealed when we got the car, the idle screw was backed out to where it wasn't even touched the throttle linkage section....2-3 turns fixed the idle problem, the engine idles happily at ~1000, yes its high to some, but the engine has never liked idling low, even in the other car with Haltech controlled....~1000 makes it a happy camper
C. 24 lb/hr injectors low impedence *wasn't aware of this at the time, was described as high, but oh well* = no good without properly tuned ECM yes....
Anyways $17 for a new sensor is no big, deal, we have spent lots and lots of money for stuff that isn't used right now with other projects, *Front Mount, several stainless/custom made to fit lines, etc. etc.* Its like how my dad puts it "When your building a race car, you do things, find something that works better and use it, and save the old for another project where it might work good* Having someone that has actually built a race car helps alot to :) Come up with all sorts of cool ideas....Having no ghetto coolant lines T'ed going every which way down by the oil cooler is nice BTW :), much nicer and lots more access to
Okay, Update: we found a fitting for the oil line and got the actuator arm straightened out, and with the line plugged in....no boost...but with it unplugged full boost *more than before, ass dyno can tell you that when the tires break loose* so we don't know what to do yet, we have no way right now to check the wastegate, unless there is some simple way that we don't know of?
I found the part number for the Solenoid, so we went ahead and ordered that, but that just doesn't seem like it would be the problem, it worked before the engine swap.....I don't know where I'm going to find one, but I guess I'm going to start looking for a wastegate actuator and possibly get a new one of those or something.....we are running out of ideas about now...
If you blow ( :lol: ) on the compressor side of the selinoid port...you should feel air going out the other side (the WG acutator side). Putting current on it...and the selinoid should close..and when you blow on it...there should be no air comming out the other port. when you blow air on the WG side..air should come out the sponge side..but not the compressor side. :wink:
I put a dash/maplight/curtisy light bulb on the selinoid plug without the selinoid connected to check if its working. I start the car and wait 5 min...then I brake torque it and see if the light starts to blink or stay on. Its better in the night. If it never lights up...check with a probe to see if one of the selinoid pins doen'ts have + on it when the car is on. If no current..then check your fueses.
If one of your temp sensors isn't connected or shorted or the Knock sensor..the WG will never work. Check those too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Diaphram in the wastegate actuator is torn or the internal spring is broken now because of the bending and straightening (sp?).
Check the actuator solenoid the way TurboGTU said...should give you an idea what to look for next. I think I speak for all when I say...do not run the car with the wastegate actuator disconnected! Unless of course you are at high altitude like me and you can get away with it! :wink:
Quote from: TGPilotI wouldn't be surprised if the Diaphram in the wastegate actuator is torn or the internal spring is broken now because of the bending and straightening (sp?).
Check the actuator solenoid the way TurboGTU said...should give you an idea what to look for next. I think I speak for all when I say...do not run the car with the wastegate actuator disconnected! Unless of course you are at high altitude like me and you can get away with it! :wink:
Yeah, i was going to try that next, and make sure all the sensors are connected, even though shouldn't it throw a check engine light if one of the temp/knock sensors aren't plugged in....
I have located a local turbo place that can get a wastegate actuator for me, so I may be getting that if we can't figure anything out....
Oh yeah, did I mention I'm at high altitude so running without it isn't causing any high boosting problems or anything like that.... :)
Instead of replacing that solenoid with another junk factory one, just get a manual boost controller, run a line from the nipple on the front of the turbo to the controller, and then from the controller to the wastegate. Make sure you have a good aftermarket boost gauge and set the spool. VIOALA!!
Update:
We took the car to be inspected/emissioned....it passed luckily, the idle speed wasn't low enough, but they fixed it, however, suspected a small vacuum leak even though they couldn't find one with the propain trick, but oh well, its passed and registered for another year, so we have time to dick with it.....anways, the new solenoid showed up, no fixed, so we are now going to be getting the new wastegate here shortly, atleast we know we have a brand new solenoid, and luckily with it unplugged still runs good, so I'm not worried about it yet....it will be back to normal eventually....
When I bought Waskie's TGP back a few years ago now...I could not get it to pass Colorado emissions. I replaced every sensor (I MEAN EVERY!! :shock: ), two injectors, plugs, and wires....it was much better...but still failed. I bought a bottle of that emissions pass additive...finally passed, but barely! 8)
These cars have a serious learning curve to them...but soon you and your Dad will know this car with your eyes closed. The more you do now the longer you will be able to enjoy a trouble free car. These cars are 15 and 16 years old respectfully...I have never purchased a car more than 5 years old that didn't have issues, and TGP's were some of the first true "computer controlled" cars GM threw out on the streets. 8)