OK some one let me know if i have all this right, so you can swap a Gen III topend on to a our Gen II engine. But if i do that i have to use the 3100 pluntums and do some other minor modifications.
So the Gen III heads won't bolt to the Gen II 3.1 pluntums.
What if i just port and polish the stock heads on my 3.1 and use the rockers off of the 3100? keeping the origional push rods?? that will work right? so all 3100's have 1.6 rockers right?
I have a complete 3100 engine out of a 00 Grand prix, and i have my car all taken apart to do the head gaskets, so i guess from what i been reading i will just use the rockers off of it cause i don't feel like doing all that work to use the 3100 heads.
But for those of you who have converted to the Gen III topends, was it really worth it cause it sounds like a pain in the @ss?
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~Dan
89 TGP
97 Z28
QuoteBut for those of you who have converted to the Gen III topends, was it really worth it cause it sounds like a pain in the @ss?
I would sure as hell think so :shock: though I can't speak from experience on the matter. yet.
I guess I don't understand exactly what you're asking. You want to use JUST the 3100 heads and not the 3100 intakes??? Or you want to use the 3.1 heads and the 3100 intakes. Either way, you need to use the whole topend from one engine, you can't put 3100 heads on a 3.1 and have everything else work. The rockers arms have nothing to do with it not working or not.
If you already have the engine apart anyways, and you have a completely 3100, just put the whole topend on it. There isn't THAT much that has to be modified. I could sit here and explain to you what needs to be modified, but once you start putting the engine together, assuming you have basic knowledge of how the engine works, you will be able to figure out what you need to do.
And as far as is it worth it? I don't know about just the topend. But with the combination of my topend, cam, and ud pulley I gained ~5mph in trap speed in the 1/4 (based from my G-tech pro) and 7+ tenths, which makes it more than worth it to me, and I have a '97 topend with '95 heads, so yours would be better because you have the bigger intakes and bigger valves. It has more power everywhere, low-end, mid-range, top-end, there is just plainly more power everywhere. The difference is very noticable, and the 3100 combined with a turbo upgrade would give you HUGE gains. Once I get bigger injectors on the car, get the boost where I want it, and tune it a little, I would guess that I will see at least a second in the 1/4. Low 13's should be easily possible with a turbo upgrade in addition to the topend.
Shawn
yeah i wanted to use the 3100 heads and rockers with the old 3.1 intake casue i wanted to keep the stock look to it. cause it says "turbo" on it ya know...
what about a 3400,would the 3400 top end work too? cause i also have an engine out of a 04 Grand Am with a V6. IS the 3100 and 3400 top end the same?? cause i rather use the 3400 engine and intake since it has like 1000 miles on it and the 3100 has alot more. and while i had this apart i wanted to put 1.6 rockers on the engine but i don't want to buy them if the 3100 or 3400 already has them.
So i was just wondering, will everything ELECTRONICLY from the turbo car just plug right in to the 3100 topend? or do i have to do some wireing to make it work? and i have to use the 3100 throtle body? will all that vacume junk on the top of the stock throtle body hook up to the 3100 throtle body??
Air TGP check PM
what?? check PM??
oh duh i figured it out
http://www.domesticcrew.com/660/
should have more answers for the 3100 / 3400 top end swap
I'm tenatively planning on using the 3500 plenum on the 3400 swap. I'll prolly use the 3400 plenum first to baseline, then see if the 3500 gives any gains or losses. I'm been watching the yards lately for the 3400 I need. When Sunshine comes apart for the tranny work, she'll be getting a 3400 top end, and prolly a complete refresh on the bottom side. Unless I get the cam out, and it looks like hell (like I suspect) in which case I'll just do the topend, and cam.
What exactly would someone need for a 3x00 topend swap?
How much are we looking at to do a 3x00 topend swap?
What kind of hp/tq numbers could be expected?
Quote from: god910I'm tenatively planning on using the 3500 plenum on the 3400 swap. I'll prolly use the 3400 plenum first to baseline, then see if the 3500 gives any gains or losses.
The 3500 plenum looks like a really good setup for a turbo car, since it's basically an open plenum. I've been comtemplating a topend swap lately, but I think I'm updgrading my turbo first since .68 A/R turbine is really holding us back. You can pick a brand new 3500 plenum for around $115 from GM parts direct. 8)
Sweetass, I was worried it was gonna be more. Yeah, I've been lookin at it for the best gains, the only downside is that it's not a direct swap. The biggest factor is that it looks like the TB points down WAY to far, especially to have a turbo sitting there. The only people to use it (only 1 that I know of so far) is N/A, and it looks pretty bad. But, hey, I have the means to weld aluminum, so I guess it's not that far off. I'll be doing the 3400 swap and the turbo swap at the same time, so I'll know what I'm getting into all at once.
Yeah, from the pictures on 60degreev6 forum it looks like the throttle body might get really close to the turbo. Then again, I thought the same thing about the 3X00 topend swap. :roll:
Quote from: skalorYeah, from the pictures on 60degreev6 forum it looks like the throttle body might get really close to the turbo. Then again, I thought the same thing about the 3X00 topend swap. :roll:
If its any closer than the 3X00 we will have MAJOR problems. My intake tube (from the IC to TB) actually rubs on my 02 sensor because the 02 sensor kind of blocks the TB. The TB is only about an inch, maybe an inch and a half above the turbo and where it ends up the 02 sensor is actually partly blocking the TB. Although, if you relocate your 02 sensor (like you would with a different turbo), and the TB doesn't end up more than like 3/4" lower then it will work from what I can see. If I had any money, I would consider doing that swap to see what all needs to be done, since it would be a lot easier for me to do than most everyone on here.
Shawn
dbtk2...do the 3100 exhuast manifolds bolt right up to the crossover?? also the 3100 had a higher compression ratio (bad for turbos from what i understand) doesnt that cause knock?? what length pushrods did you use?? how would you rate this project difficulty 1-10, and what experience level should one have before attempting this?
I don't know about the front 3100 manifold bolting up, but obviously the rear won't bolt up because it is gonna dump out the back where the downpipe connects on the N/A engines. I ported my 3.1 manifolds to match the 3100 heads.
The difference in compression ratio is in the pistons, the heads have the same size combustion chamber on them. Your compression ratio will not change. (unless of course you use thinner/thicker head gaskets and/or different pistons)
I used stock pushrods, but thats because I'm using '95 heads, meaning I don't have the roller fulcrum rockers. If you're using roller fulcrum rockers then you will need custom length pushrods.
It isn't that difficult, there is just a lot of crap you have to do. I would rate it probably like a 7 or 8. But just to help you realize, I was 16 when I did the swap, so obviously it doesn't require a rocket scientist. I did the swap over about a 3 week time period when I had time, probably an average of about 2 hours a day. I took my time on the swap, and did other things that you might not be doing at the same time. (the cam and a new passenger halfshaft because I snapped mine a couple days before i did the swap) Not to mention I spent about a week of that trying to find my damn oil leak because i didn't tighten down the turbo oil feed line all the way.
And also, all 3X00's with roller fulcrum rockers had 1.6 rockers. If they weren't roller rockers, then they were 1.5, if I understand correctly.
Shawn
Was there any more info discovered about the rockers? I remembered all the 1.6's being only roller, now I have read on the 60deg board that some may not be. And most people say they don't bolt up, but I've ridden in a TGP that had them. And the owner said he just did a basic rocker swap, nothing special.
:?:
Quote from: dbtk2I used stock pushrods, but thats because I'm using '95 heads, meaning I don't have the roller fulcrum rockers. If you're using roller fulcrum rockers then you will need custom length pushrods.
do you know the length of the pushrods needed? cause i'm gona use some rockers off of a 04 3400?
Quote from: Air TGPdo you know the length of the pushrods needed? cause i'm gona use some rockers off of a 04 3400?
I couldn't tell you. But i know they can tell you on the 60degree board.
QuoteWas there any more info discovered about the rockers? I remembered all the 1.6's being only roller, now I have read on the 60deg board that some may not be. And most people say they don't bolt up, but I've ridden in a TGP that had them. And the owner said he just did a basic rocker swap, nothing special.
Well, I can tell you that you can't bolt them up to your heads without cutting notches in your heads. And I'm pretty sure you would still need custom length pushrods. The regular 3100 rockers (that look like ours) were 1.5, and the roller fulcrum were 1.6. I've heard one source say otherwise, but I believe what I've seen from personal experince and heard from dozens of people over that one source. It seems a lot easier and a lot more practical to just buy some comp 1.6 roller tip rockers to me though. Those will bolt right up with some guideplate modifying, so why not just spend $130 or so on those and modify your guideplates instead of trying to find custom length pushrods and all that. I don't know what your friend with the TGP used for his swap, but I would talk to him about it, because as far as I know its not possible. I have some 1.6 Roller Fulcrum rockers that came off the '97 3100 I used for my topend (except the heads) if you want to experiment with them or whatever. I have the pushrods from that motor too, but I'm not sure the lengths are even close to being right for a 3.1...
I know I'm putting 1.6's on my STE, and I'm using comp rockers. I have them sitting in the garage waiting to go on once I get the thing back on the road again.
Shawn
dbtk2......help me get this straight....ok so your using 1.5 rockers from an early 3100?? but some people want to use 1.6 roller fulcrum from later years 3100 and its alot of work???s what is the difference between those 1.6 roller fulcrums and regular comp cam or any aftermarket roller rockers??? which set up is the highest quality/best perfomance??
thanks in advance
Quote from: futuretgp'erdbtk2......help me get this straight....ok so your using 1.5 rockers from an early 3100?? but some people want to use 1.6 roller fulcrum from later years 3100 and its alot of work???s what is the difference between those 1.6 roller fulcrums and regular comp cam or any aftermarket roller rockers??? which set up is the highest quality/best perfomance??
thanks in advance
I'm using the 1.5 rockers off my 3.1, but they are the same as what came on the early 3100. Since I have '95 3100 heads, I can use these rockers no problem. The roller fulcrum rockers have a bolt and mounting plate attached to them, and the mounting plate has a slot in it that sits down in the slots in the later 3100 heads (the ones that the 1.6 rockers came on). The 1.5 rockers just have a nut to hold them on to the studs/guideplates that are attached to the heads. The 1.6 rockers will also required different length pushrods (as far as I can tell) then the 1.5's do on a 3.1.
Now, the Comp Cams roller tip rockers don't have roller fulcrums, so they aren't as efficient, but that difference in power is gonna be small. (like 2hp MAYBE) However, they are like $130 and the bolt right onto the stock heads and retain the stock pushrods, all you have to do is grind down your guideplates a little for clearance. The Crane Roller Rockers will bolt right on as well, and they are roller fulcrum and roller tip (the 3100 rockers are only roller fulcrum, not roller tip), however they are almost $400, so it doesn't seem worth it IMO. The aftermarket rockers were designed for the '80's 2.8L engine, so thats why they bolt up to the heads with little modification.
Shawn
hey man thanks alot for being patient with me....i completely understand now!!
haha i have one last question though...did you have to use a different power steering pump?
Quote from: futuretgp'erhey man thanks alot for being patient with me....i completely understand now!!
haha i have one last question though...did you have to use a different power steering pump?
Yes. I ended up getting one from a local salvage yard that only deals with ~'00 and newer cars, so it came off of a '03 Impala with a 3400 that had like 500 miles on it when it was wrecked. It was $55 for the pump, and it came with a lifetime warranty as well. Not a bad deal IMO.
It isn't that hard to make it work either. I didn't have to buy a new line or whatever, in fact I don't even remember having to do any bending to make it work. The only thing I had to change was the rubber line that connects to the power steering pump, the nipple goes up instead of down, so I had to get a different rubber hose for that.
Shawn
uhhg...more questions hope u dont mind...why did u use 95 head and not the 97 heads? what did u do with the throttle body and vacuum lines?
Quote from: futuretgp'eruhhg...more questions hope u dont mind...why did u use 95 head and not the 97 heads? what did u do with the throttle body and vacuum lines?
I used the '95 heads because I already had some lying around that had been completely rebuilt and had a valve job done, etc... The heads off the '97 engine would've needed a rebuild before I would've felt comfortable putting them on the car. Not only that, but flow wise, there is no difference between the two heads, so why not use the one I don't have to drill a hole in for the coolant sensor, and the one that I don't have to change pushrods with. It just didn't make sense to me to use the '97 heads. If they would've been '00+ heads, it would've been a different story, but since they were only '97 heads, the decision was quite easy.
I guess I don't understand what you're asking about the throttle body. The plenum has plenty of vacuum ports. I just connected vacuum lines to the closest port in the plenum. You will probably end up having to block some of the vacuum ports off actually. But, that is easy stuff that you will figure out just by looking at it. Vacuum lines are simple...
Shawn
thanks again man.....u should do a write up and or make this top end swap info a sticky post