Anyone ever though of gutting the TGP of its sound proffing and other heavy parts to ligheting the car up a bit without messing up thise collectibles. For a FWD performance car..it is heavy. I was thinking of maybe 300lb diet or 3100lbs with me in it. (Im 230lbs). Well sound padding is one thing(like 30lbs?). Light carpetting is another(6lbs?). I was thinking of removing the AC and just having a heater/fan(40lbs?). Installing all aluminum pipes on exhaust(5lbs?), If possible..fiberglass trunk/ hood if traction allows(30lbs?). Thats 111lbs of possible gutting. I know the Prototype TGP was lighter than ours. Mybe this is what they did..minus the a/c of course. Any ideas?
I'm in the process of removing the A/C from my TGP. I already took out the core, but not compressor and all the lines yet. I'm actually looking to lighten it up a little all over by taking all the little stuff off. I'm only looking to maybe lose 100 lbs of weight, but then again that supposed to be worth a tenth in the 1/4. :P
I have a thing against losing luxery items.. I'd rather have parts made of lighter material to replace whatever. It'd be great if somebody made light weight body panels (CF? fiberglass?) and such.
You can lose 105 lbs right away! Do a 5-speed swap! :lol:
I did do a 5 speed swap, but I used a 284. So that's 50 lbs more that I could have lost if I were to use a 282 instead. :)
I don't want to lose any luxery either, that's why I'm not ditching the seats for some lighter ones. :P
5spd? Na..not me. Sounds good though. What's lighter..the sping setup..or our leaf spring setup? I actually don't use the A/C even in the 750..or on any of the cars. I just don't like A/C..Id rather roll down the windows and open the sunroof..unless its a date 8) . I'll prob start weighting the parts (trunk, hood/doors..ect) when I comprleately dissasimble the car for a restoration. I don't want to hack it up..I want stock looking.
Get racing seats for the front. Race seats average around 25-30lbs a peice. Our stockers weigh anywhere from 55-60lbs a peice :shock: .
Lighter wheels also help out a lot. I gained 2-3mph in the 1/4 by switching to lighter wheels. The stock cross-laces are 26lbs. My aftermarket 17x7's weight 17lbs a peice.
The FFP underdrive pully is a lot lighter then the stock peice.
my tgp is getting this very work over as we speak
just a degree futher i have removed all the seats and sound deadin mat.
carpets gone im repacing it thought with a lighter fabric thats getting put in and looks better, the rear seats are no more, i have a peice of polycarb thats getting covered in the fabric to delete the rears
the fronts are baged up and in my attic i have kirky tig'd sheet metal seats which i must say are comfy i thought they would suck but there nice with the tweed covers to replace them.
wheels are gone to the attic, i have a 28lbs a corner set of 18s on it now, thats wheel and tire but there up for grabs, i orded 17x9 gramlights all around and at 10.6lbs each i think it will help
i kept my ac but diched all the running gear in trunk and all the carpet there too
mono leaf is leaving in a few days wating on a few parts.
im putting a fiber glass trunk on and i have a extra hood thats getting a work over with a fiberglass incert
i though about getting the fiberglass doors at 13lbs there nice but the windows are afixed polycarb
o yea i have lost 30lbs so far lol
but i have picked up some weight with the larger turbo devorced gate and what nots and the 8 or 10 point cage im bending to replace the 4point i cut out (it looked like shit)
i still have a long way to go but it sould be out this spring agian i hope
o i diched all the radio too kinda since the head unit froze (sucks)
ill let you know the final weight is once i get it on the scales
andy
:shock: :shock: :shock: keep us posted on this project. I like all your ideas on dieting. roll cage=very cool. never seen one in a TGP. Does your car got a sunroof?
I'm trying to figure out why he even has a cage in his TGP, you don't need a cage until you run 10.99 or quicker, and you don't need a roll bar unless your run 11.49 or quicker, which I doubt his TGP does either. Unless he does autocross or something???
As for weight, its easy to drop a lot of weight, it just depends on how much luxury you want to lose:
-A/C is an easy one and drops significant weight
-Insulation under the carpet and in the doorpanels and whatnot is a good 30lbs. and doesn't take too long to do.
-If you take out your stereo and the speakers its a good 10-15lbs.
-The back seat is like 25lbs. if you take out the back and the bottom
-Catalytic convertor is heavy, replace it with straightpipe and you should save a good 20+lbs.
-Front and rear bumper supports are ~20+lbs. each.
-TGP WHEELS, they are really heavy, going to a lighter wheel can save you 10+ lbs. per tire, and being unsprung weight and rotating mass 1lb. of it is like dropping 8 regular lbs., so thats 80lbs. per tire, which is 3 tenths by just dropping 10lbs. each wheel.
Theres a bunch more stuff you can do to drop weight too. Just start looking around in your car at what you don't need.
Shawn
http://www.hairyglass.com/grandprix.html
Would any thing like those work? Fiberglass body panels.....
Perhaps the decklid and rear bumper section, the fronts are 6" longer for racing application obviously
Maybe the GFX and Door too if you could get a door handle contraption to work or solenoid opening doors?
Quote from: mclaren18psimy tgp is getting this very work over as we speak
just a degree futher i have removed all the seats and sound deadin mat.
Do you have any pictures of your engine bay Andy? Also, what size is your downpipe?
The doors on the TGP are heavy. Those doors would do perfect. They would need at least a steel bar acrrose the latch much like the F-body has on its plastic doors. They are just right in my budget for a set. The trunk lid is good too.
Realisticly..Im aiming for 3000lbs topps with me in the car. Im 230-250...depending on season :lol: . So far it looks like everything past the engine cradle needs a diet. So far it looks like I'll be using a 3t40 as its more easly "beefable" and cheaper than the 4spd slush box or 5spd drama box so i'll save some weight there too.
Now my delema.
Dragging the car means more drematic rear suspension changes and cockpit changes along with trans gear changes (steep final drive). If I drag the car ..I expect mid 11s no less. Anything less its going to be turned into a Hot Rod and save my self the headeach of a blown trans on a few seconds of fun. :? .
you may want to get a fresh TV cable. but lighter is easier on the tranny, so should be ok if you have a tranny temp gauge and air dam/functional tranny cooler. the TV cable heats up and streches over the years.
coil overs are what you want for lightness.
The subframe off a 97-newer grand prix is way lighter I heard, cant remember if anybody has tried an aluminum subframe or not.
Quote from: GangstGPThe subframe off a 97-newer grand prix is way lighter I heard, cant remember if anybody has tried an aluminum subframe or not.
The thing is, do those subframes bolt in? I'm not so sure they do (could be wrong though). If you were gonna go through the trouble of swapping it, you might as well get one from a '00+ Monte Carlo to save an additional 40lbs. over the GP one, since the Monte one is aluminum. This is a significant weight savings mod for the '97+ GP's.
I'll be doing a bit of weight reduction to the STE here pretty soon so I'll fill you guys in on what I do, and what kind of weight savings it was. I just need to invest in a nice scale first.
Shawn
Quote from: dbtk2Quote from: GangstGPThe subframe off a 97-newer grand prix is way lighter I heard, cant remember if anybody has tried an aluminum subframe or not.
The thing is, do those subframes bolt in? I'm not so sure they do (could be wrong though). If you were gonna go through the trouble of swapping it, you might as well get one from a '00+ Monte Carlo to save an additional 40lbs. over the GP one, since the Monte one is aluminum. This is a significant weight savings mod for the '97+ GP's.
I'll be doing a bit of weight reduction to the STE here pretty soon so I'll fill you guys in on what I do, and what kind of weight savings it was. I just need to invest in a nice scale first.
Shawn
I tore a subframe off a TGP just the other day and it is sitting in the corner under the redwood tree. If we could aquire a monte or gp (preferrably) aluminum we could compare specs.
The subframe off a 97-newer grand prix will not bolt on to a Pre 97 GP, and the Aluminum ones tend to break at the welds, many of the 97+ GP guys get these but have them rewelded and strengthened before installing. 8)
Quote from: GPChiefThe subframe off a 97-newer grand prix will not bolt on to a Pre 97 GP, and the Aluminum ones tend to break at the welds, many of the 97+ GP guys get these but have them rewelded and strengthened before installing. 8)
I did not expect it to be a direct swap :wink: My friend is going to school for welding and likes to work on turbo cars. so if its close....
Quote from: GPChiefThe subframe off a 97-newer grand prix will not bolt on to a Pre 97 GP, and the Aluminum ones tend to break at the welds, many of the 97+ GP guys get these but have them rewelded and strengthened before installing. 8)
I only know of a select few who are running this subframe, and of those I know of none of them have strength problems, I could be wrong though.
Shawn
For a reworked aluminum subframe I'd go for a steel tube formed unit. Welding aluminum aint cheap. Welding steel is. Steel is easy to work with. I was thining keeping the stock subframe. IF anything...remove chucks and weld lighter steel tube there. This is way out of my leage still. So the subframe is staying put.
So first off this is a basically a full drag car then?
Okay, if so, gut the entire interior, all you need in a race car in ONE seat, and make it the lightest most uncomfortable thing there is, you are in it for less than what 3 minutes at a time, your ass can take a 3 minute beating I'm sure :shock: :P
Anyways, gut the interior, perhaps get that dash from that place I posted too? Then just get autometer gauges all around, remove all the HVAC controls as well, you don't need heating/AC/Vent or anything in a drag car, how about a manual steering rack, drag cars don't turn, so power steering can be removed. Drag cars only run for a short time, so you don't really need an alternator, and if you push it, you can probably get away with no water pump or get an electrical one, then you have no serpentine belt. Then you could remove the radiator and fans, less weight, and have room for a big ass front mount intercooler.
Obviously the trunk stuff can all be removed. Maybe a custom or FFP coil-overs for the back with the stiffest you can go to help prevent weight transfer. Get 2 spares for the rear tires, since they do nothing anyways, get some light weight drag wheels for the front. Could probably get some wide bastards since looks are out so could have them stick out a bit. Remove all the power stuff from the interior too, power windows, locks, any wiring that isn't required at all. Oh, and if you are REALLY into weight savings. DRILL HOLES in the chassis, yeah it doesn't sound like it would do much but my dad did it to his race cars where it wasn't need and saved quite a bit. If you have the time, you can also do this to the block, shave any excess material that isn't needed. Make sure the rear brakes aren't seized also, hell, maybe just don't use the rear brakes unless you get going too fast, they have long shut down areas so rear brakes aren't as big a deal. After that, its just things here and their,,,,,,oh oh, and go on a diet for yourself? :P
you sayin Im overweight? Im 270 is that too much for a 6'8" frame? I am real sensitive about that subject!
J/K, I am actually not looking to gut the entire ride, but do want to significantly reduce the weight by shaving half pounds and ounces here and there while retaining the ability to have a streetable fun car for me and my friends. and since it will still be a passenger vehicle insured and driving around town, I will keep the back seats that are light as a stuffed animal, but they will have to be dyed black to match the front fake leather racing buckets. want to replace the carpet with thin black material, keep the dash, stereo(a little less wattage this time),heater, power steering, maybe lose the doors and put in fiberglass suicide or lambo doors, but then I would want opening windows, or at least a heavy F-ing sunroof. damn, that would actually still be semi-cool to have as a daily.
I still havent seen a set of wheels that I like yet that are super light. anybody got some in mind that fit 245s maybe 255s like the concept car had? I heard of this one dude who got gramlight wheels or some shit like that.
I know my buddy Jim who I just put a sick ass system in his Tercel, he drove around in a GTO all gutted and 1 seat roll cage car as a daily driver but would get pulled over a lot. probably must have been the built 455 on nitrous.
Keep ur alt, because as you go, it will drain the battery and give a weaker and colder spark, causeing less performance, its not like its THAT much of a drag on the motor, water pump, yes, keep it, power steering is probable an option, same with all the vents and a/c, if you have glass headlights, go with plastic or none
Quote from: ProspeederKeep ur alt, because as you go, it will drain the battery and give a weaker and colder spark, causeing less performance, its not like its THAT much of a drag on the motor, water pump, yes, keep it, power steering is probable an option, same with all the vents and a/c, if you have glass headlights, go with plastic or none
See here is the question, does Mr. GTU want a full blown race car, or still a "street" car. What you say it a good ideas YES, but if its a race car, ALL weight savings and HP freeing up that can be had is a must and just a dry cell racing battery that is charged after every pass with fix your spark problem, i ran my car for like 2 days before the battery died with no alternator. Driving with no power steering can suck with big/wide tires yes but probably could be do able, its not to bad when the car is moving.
Im kinda curious to see how much my Turbo CS weighs....
need to find a weigh scale somewhere where i can weight it correctly
Quote from: z284pwrQuote from: ProspeederKeep ur alt, because as you go, it will drain the battery and give a weaker and colder spark, causeing less performance, its not like its THAT much of a drag on the motor, water pump, yes, keep it, power steering is probable an option, same with all the vents and a/c, if you have glass headlights, go with plastic or none
See here is the question, does Mr. GTU want a full blown race car, or still a "street" car. What you say it a good ideas YES, but if its a race car, ALL weight savings and HP freeing up that can be had is a must and just a dry cell racing battery that is charged after every pass with fix your spark problem, i ran my car for like 2 days before the battery died with no alternator. Driving with no power steering can suck with big/wide tires yes but probably could be do able, its not to bad when the car is moving.
You can get a pretty light alternator that would make virtually no weight difference and you just hook up a switch to it to turn it off during the run. Then you know it will be putting no load on the engine during the run, then when you get done you turn it on again. My friend did this in his Lumina that he drove everyday, and it actually made a noticable difference when he shut the switch off.
Shawn
yes, a 15v racing battery could be placed in there and unplug the alt. just have a hollow alt with good bearings.
I was just thinking of braket racing or something like that, maybe x-cross or rally onece in a while. One track I used to go to..vaigly anyone went faster than mid 11s. Only the fast guys were there on saturdays..even then it was mid 10s high 9s. I just want quick fun and money. Nothing too dramatic. Thats what my '63 is for.
In any event...the TGP is too heavy even for a street car. Reminds me of the late 60s Eldorado. All the power..but alot of weight.
Instead of dropping weight, just add a lot more power. :wink: I'm not removing a single ounce from my current TGP(other than the spare tire/jack when I take it to the track).
Has anyone weighed a TGP yet? I believe TookyCat stated that he weighed his car in a recent thread, but he didn't mention what the results were. I have two scales within a few minutes of my house(truck weigh station and one at a local sandpit), I'm going to call one of those soon and put my car on the scale.
My TGP weighed in at 3390 lbs(without me in it) with a 1/2 tank of gas when it was auto. I think I dropped a few lbs from the 5 speed conversion, and I tossed the A/C in the trash. I'm also switch to vaccum brakes soon and I'm sure that will save a couple lbs as the PowerMasterIII is big. 8)
Mine is almost 4000 lbs but I always forget the exact weight.its like 38-something.
i had a cage for autox but im going more streetcar drag now so im manly using a cage for the seats as kirky alumniums have to be suported and with my new set up i hope to need one soon as my local track is anal on many levels one being that require door bars when you run full fiberglass doors
im tryin to get my pictures hosted now so i can post my current turbo pics that are rought and far from complete but the same ill be posting them
andy
im looking to get mine to around 2500 or less if possible, for dirt track racing
now that I would like to see. these cars would be great for dirt track. keep us posted, I'm sure everyone here would be delighted to see another TGP turned race car.
will do, i think a 3.4dohc 5spd on the w-body platform will be very fast, i plan on boosting it with a turbo off my buddy's blown up supra, has front mount intercooler too. Would that be too over the top in a 2500lbs car?
I'll be sure and post pics of us hacking and gutting the gp. Like i said if anybody needs some parts just come on down and pull it. Less work for me.
Quote from: fwdjarvis3will do, i think a 3.4dohc 5spd on the w-body platform will be very fast, i plan on boosting it with a turbo off my buddy's blown up supra, has front mount intercooler too. Would that be too over the top in a 2500lbs car?
I'll be sure and post pics of us hacking and gutting the gp. Like i said if anybody needs some parts just come on down and pull it. Less work for me.
wait, I thought you were planning a 3.1 turbo race car tgp.
I would but the 3.1 has it limits and i really like the hp in the dohc. I have a 3.1 in the sunbird but no boost, it was fast but handled like a tank, body dipped too much in the corners, more bang for the buck with the 3.4dohc swap, boosted especially.
there was the 88 Beretta concept car twin turbo 3.4. saw an article one time, I think it was a w-body. the thing was pretty bad ass I guess. If you could build one like that.......I guess that would be cool.
Quote from: GangstGPthere was the 88 Beretta concept car twin turbo 3.4. saw an article one time, I think it was a w-body. the thing was pretty bad ass I guess. If you could build one like that.......I guess that would be cool.
That Beretta had a 3.4 liter pushrod engine in it and it wasn't a W-body, it was a L-body like all of those berettas. "TimG" on the other board has a turbocharged 3.4 DOHC in his Monte Carlo...stock engine + turbo kit basically and made 325whp and right at 350 ft-lbs of torque to the wheels.
oh, yea I wasn't sure if it was even a w. That guy Tim, what turbo kit did he have for his Monte?
Quote from: GangstGPoh, yea I wasn't sure if it was even a w. That guy Tim, what turbo kit did he have for his Monte?
Custom w/ a T04E turbocharger, you can search his screenname on the w-body board and find out all the info on it. He has a really nice setup. 8)
yea, I just spent the last hour looking through everywhere and only saw like 2 pics of the exterior . no motor pics, nothin :? oh well, was that car fast?
Quote from: GangstGPyea, I just spent the last hour looking through everywhere and only saw like 2 pics of the exterior . no motor pics, nothin :? oh well, was that car fast?
He hasn't ran it at the track in current form as far as I know. I would expect that his car could run well into the 12's with drag radials or slicks on there. I know of a L67 swapped '95 Grand Prix(should be very similar in weight to the Monte Carlo) that had a bit over 260whp and ran high 12's @104-105mph for what it's worth.
EDIT: here's his cardomain page...he has two nicely modded cars(that S2000 was strong enough to run low 12's on his old setup...he ran equivalent to 8.17@91.66mph at sea level in the 1/8th mile) . 8)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/719379
Quote from: mfewtrailQuote from: GangstGPyea, I just spent the last hour looking through everywhere and only saw like 2 pics of the exterior . no motor pics, nothin :? oh well, was that car fast?
He hasn't ran it at the track in current form as far as I know. I would expect that his car could run well into the 12's with drag radials or slicks on there. I know of a L67 swapped '95 Grand Prix(should be very similar in weight to the Monte Carlo) that had a bit over 260whp and ran high 12's @104-105mph for what it's worth.
EDIT: here's his cardomain page...he has two nicely modded cars(that S2000 was strong enough to run low 12's on his old setup...he ran equivalent to 8.17@91.66mph at sea level in the 1/8th mile) . 8)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/719379
The powerband will have a big effect on your times, so just because you peak at X hp doesn't mean it will run the same time as another car that peaks at that same power. However, if hes making 325whp & 350wtq. then I'd say he should have no problems breaking into the 12's. My dads GTP ran a 12.08 with 315whp/365wtq, so since his car is similar weight and power 12.5's should be cake.
Shawn
Quote from: dbtk2
The powerband will have a big effect on your times, so just because you peak at X hp doesn't mean it will run the same time as another car that peaks at that same power. However, if hes making 325whp & 350wtq. then I'd say he should have no problems breaking into the 12's. My dads GTP ran a 12.08 with 315whp/365wtq, so since his car is similar weight and power 12.5's should be cake.
Shawn
I already know that.....is your dad's GTP lightened? If not, it's gotta be at least 150-200lbs over what Tim's monte weighs. The monte ran 9.5 @ 78 mph at a higher elevation track which converted to 9.10 sec @ 81.52 mph back when he dyno'd 263whp....street tire run of course. That 325whp was on 10psi and pump gas...I'm sure that T04E could pump out a good bit more than that once Tim gets it tuned more/does more supporting mods.
Quote from: mfewtrailI already know that.....is your dad's GTP lightened? If not, it's gotta be at least 150-200lbs over what Tim's monte weighs. The monte ran 9.5 @ 78 mph at a higher elevation track which converted to 9.10 sec @ 81.52 mph back when he dyno'd 263whp....street tire run of course. That 325whp was on 10psi and pump gas...I'm sure that T04E could pump out a good bit more than that once Tim gets it tuned more/does more supporting mods.
His car was lightened a little for the 12.08 pass, but the Monte is still way lighter. My dads car is a 4 door, sunroof car, making it the heaviest possible combination available, not to mention its a 40th anniversary car so it has all the extra stuff for that as well, plus leather, etc... We dropped about 100lbs. off the car with misc. little things here and there. Full weight, with the stock 2.93 gears, stock torque convertor, etc... the car ran a 12.40. From there we did torque convertor, gears, dropped some weight, did some suspension mods for better launches, and that got it down to the 12.08. (which actually for an M90/stock cam L67 thats damn good, he set the record by a longshot and it still hasn't been matched) It also ran 7.7's in the 1/8 at 90mph when it was making those power levels.
But anyways, all I was really saying is that with Tims setup that made 325hp/350tq. he should be running in the mid 12's range fairly easily. Depending on his powerband, traction, weight, etc... he might be able to go low 12's even. With more boost obviously the car would be much more capable. From the sounds of his setup, I'd say with the right amont of boost his current setup should be able to put him comfortably in the mid 11's. I just don't know how well the LQ1 is going to handle those power levels because I don't know of anyone making that kind of power with them. I'm not sure what kind of power levels it can support because I don't know anyone making tons of power with it, but it sounds like Tim will be testing the limits of it for sure.
Shawn
I suppose if I wasa big enough dohc I would try it :lol:
Probly in a northstar though. :lol: they get like a 1000 HP when you build the piss out of a early OBD1 Northstar and turbo it. at least the sand rails do. I dont know in a car.
Quote from: GangstGPthere was the 88 Beretta concept car twin turbo 3.4. saw an article one time, I think it was a w-body. the thing was pretty bad ass I guess. If you could build one like that.......I guess that would be cool.
Oh yeah...found the article for the twin turbo 3.3/3.4(seen 3.4 written somewhere else in regards to this car) Beretta.
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/113_9806_top/index5.html 8)
ok, now I want a Beretta and a 6000 steawd and make myself the baddest TGPU awd since the 80's :shock:. would that work?
I was told that a TGP body would be too much of a hassle to convert to awd, so would a Beretta be a better platform to use?
Quote from: GangstGPok, now I want a Beretta and a 6000 steawd and make myself the baddest TGPU awd since the 80's :shock:. would that work?
I was told that a TGP body would be too much of a hassle to convert to awd, so would a Beretta be a better platform to use?
No it wouldnt it would be just as bad. This topic has been discussed on the Beretta boards as well. From what I remember, chassis are all different, rear-end would need to be fixed big time, chassis lengths is wrong, etc. etc. Better idea would just to find an AWD in good shape and make a killer sleeper out of it. No one is going to expect the epitome of shit box looking car to kick your ass :wink:
I dunno how strong the trans/transfer case, or whatever it would be called is though, it may not like super high torque numbers you could throw down with a bigger turbo, high stall converter, etc. etc. it may exit stage left really fast :lol:
the transfer case is supposed to handle like 400+ hp and the tranny we were just talking about being the 3t40 with the highest torque rating. so yea, sleeper heaven.