Beware of this SHOP!
The following post is for anyone willing to take the time to read what concerns a Turbo Grand Prix Conversion project gone wrong. The main shop involved was Engineered Performance, a supposedly high respected shop located in North Georgia.
The GP to be converted is a Show condition 89 base GP that was converted first to an "SE" Model.
The swap began after I had purchased a complete salvaged TGP for $500.
Engineered Performance [EP] was contacted and given the task of the TGP Conversion.
EP was supposed to run a through check of the TGP's engine/ tranny before it was even taken out of the TGP.
Ouoted by EP in Email:
The TGP has excellent compression. I think the fuel pump might be weak. But, that it of no consequence.
I was thinking about what needs to be done... remove your subframe, remove the TGP subframe, reseal the engine, rebuild the transmission (if necessary, I will do a partial disassemble to determine its condition), install the whole mess in your car, hook up ECU, all new belts/hoses, etc. Honestly, you are looking about 3000.00. It's a lot of work and most of it takes a lot of time.
The first thing to do is remove the engine from the TGP and reseal it. Pressure wash/paint the frame, clean up the messy wiring (de-flood the harness), rebuild the transmission, get it ready to go in your car. This is the expensive part. I would need 2000.00 up front to do it. Then you'd owe the balance when we finish the installation on your car. Any extras like chip, crossover pipe, turbo upgrade, etc. would be over the cost quoted.
The FIRST estimates run by EP:
Dave, book time on just R&R w/turbo is 10.8 hours. That's 800.00. We have to do that 1.5 times. That's 1200.00. That does NOT include rebuilding the transmission. The performance transmission rebuild is 1500.00 w/converter (again, IF NEEDED). A limited slip is 500.00 with transmission (75.00 discount). So we are up to 3200.00 with no belts, no hoses, no tune-up or anything. I knocked off 200.00 for the used parts. I only tell you this b/c I have lost my ass too many times in the past on engine swaps. It will take WAYYYY more time than the 16.2 hours. I'll probably spend twice that on it. I price these engine swaps to keep up with other shops (which, btw, there is NO ONE doing domestic engine swaps ANYWHERE but me with the exception of a few Fiero companies)
Anyway, if the trans does NOT need a complete rebuild, less than 3000.00. If it does, right at or just over... no chip tuning (ecu tuning is 175.00/hr. on the dyno).
$2000 was paid to EP to START the SWAP.
First time I was at the shop I told EP to check the turbo that was on it. He said it looked like we are OK with it. Next email I got was:
Dave, bad news. I just checked the turbo and it has way too much endplay to use it. You can move the shaft in/out about 1/4". It needs to be rebuilt. Figure about 550.00. I also have a good used rebuilt turbo that has about 7500 miles on it. I'd sell it for 250.00 cash. Let me know which way you want to go.
I told EP if the used one was good to use it.
Then about a week later: (on the Tranny)
IS BURNT TOAST!!!!!!!!
Here's a pic. It was NOT rebuilt. If it was, they didn't adjust the t.v. cable properly and burned it up. I do know they changed the valve body b/c it has aftermarket gaskets on it. And it does not have "turbo" on the pump cover. Unless 89 was different than 90... the 90 I built had the "turbo" designation on the pump cover. Anyway, this trans has a 1-2 accumulator, the 90 turbo trans does not. I thought maybe it was a non-original trans, but the VIN stamp on the trans matches the engine (and, presumably, the car).
So... I have, in my red 90, a GM service replacement turbo trans, with less than 10K miles, that was bought when you could still buy them. It is no longer available from Goodwrench or AC/Delco. It would cost at least 2000.00 to build this bad trans, 1500.00 labor + parts (I know this b/c I just built one for a 90 and had to replace alot of hard parts and the OD clutches were not as bad as these). I'll sell you the SR turbo trans out of my car for 1250.00 cash. (That includes my labor pulling it of of my car.)
Please bear in mind those figure do not include the $3000 - $3100 discussed eariler.
Then He decides that the used turbo is not worthed and asked me:
I need the 500.00 for the turbo right away. You will be happy to learn that for your money you will be recieving a REBUILT turbo, not used. (I keep your old turbo in exchange.) I am using my turbo guy in NC. He has it this morning and will be sending it back today. We will have it tomorrow in time to finish the car. BUT, I need to pay for it and I don't have the money to do so. I need you to come by and bring cash. Check or credit card will not clear in time for me to pay for the turbo.
I was at the shop a few times during the swap, The TGP's engine harness was torn by the assc belt from a seized A/C Compressor. So EP has to resolder some of the wires back together. While I was inspecting the wiring (Which was only crimped together, not soldered) two of the wires come out of the crimp connecters. (Mind you, this is an engine harness!!!)
After a bottom line of $3450, EP finally get the swap together 3 months later. They stated the engine was running rough. Traced it to bad plugs.. Now I'm thinking after a swap like this, you would think one of the FIRST items to be replaced would be the PLUGS!!! But no.... Jeff tried leaving the OLD ones in.. When they had to replace the plugs, they CHARGED ME $75 bucks for 6 PLUGS!! ON top of the 3450 for the swap!!!
The morning I picked up the GP, it was running ok. Drove it home about 50 miles away. No problem. Parked it in the driveway. Let the car sit for 2 hours then I was going to move it into the garage. White smoke begins to pour out the exhaust. Next day I went over the car to see what needed to be done before showing it again. Cranked it up and the smoke is back.
Found out that EP:
- Scratched my newly painted F-Brace (Refused to pay for)
- Wedged the Flex-a-lite Tranny Cooler between the bumper and the bra. So I could not get the bra off the clean the car.
- Left the AC line off the compressor (Says he forgot to TELL me about it)
- Only changed upper and lower Radiator Hose. All other OEM hoses where left Org. OEM parts. For those of you who know the TGP, ou know all the rubber hose crap connecting the various plumbing in the engine.
- Told me he was going to add the ST Springs since it was going to be easier while doing the swap. Didn't install them. He kpt complaining that he was doing all this extra work.. Wen if facyt he didnt do half of what he was required.
Now for the turbo saga:
This was a newly rebuilt T-25 put on by EP. Ok? $500 for that. Jeff Ianitello drove it for about 75 miles to check things out... No problem. I picked up the car. drove it home... (approx. 50 miles) So the Turbo had less than 200 miles on it.. I park the car. Come back out 2 hours later and crank it up to move it in the garage. White smoke starts pouring out the rear, turns out to be oil leaking passed the bearing seals on the turbo.. WTF !!! I trailer it BACK to EP. The dammed shop wants money for taking it off again.. WTF!!!! So I TRAILER it back HOME so I can take the turbo off MYSELF to have the Turbo place that rebuilt it take a look to see what happened.
I'm thinking , OK, It needs to be rebuilt AGAIN.. FOR FREE it better be!!!!!NO!!!
Turbo shop comes back saying "There was a piece of trash in the turbo wedged in the bearing. It most likely came from the oil pump or possibly just come carbon build-up in the oil galleys. it was a hard, crunchy piece of carbon. When the bearing stopped turning, the shaft spun and ruined the housing. It needs a new center section. He will rebuild the turbo at no cost to you, but the new center section will cost you 325.00..." DUHHHHHH ...That's not free ANYMORE DUMBASS!!! What the hell happened to such a THING CALLED a WARRANTY!!!!!!
I know Jeff will come back at me saying the engine was shit... Oh yea .. Well EP performed a compression check on this engine before starting the work on it.... 170-175 PSI Compression was verified by EP... I don't call the results shit....
To the Readers.
EP is a very dishonest shop. I will no longer recommend this shop for any work for ANYONE. PERIOD. As of March 05, EP still has the Bad turbo off the GP, saying he will not ship it to me unless I paid for shipping ($30 more dollars for a crook) Geeez man... :evil: :evil: :evil:
Owner of EP Responds,
http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2085081
OK, I did manage to have a fellow GACGP member convince Jeff at EP to return my old T-25 unit for no charge. In doing so, managed to retrieve the new Wastegate actuator from EP.
Now, I'm just waiting on another shop to return the other T-25 unit in rebuilt condition. Once I receive the new unit , I'll start piecing the parts back together. Along with having to:
- Replace all hose and plumbing connections. (Not done by EP)
- Probe the ECM harness for proper wire repair,
- Flush the oiling system before turbo is hooked up
- Replace / repaint damaged painted parts.
- Replace broken Intercooler fan
- Repair fog light wires (Damaged by EP during install)
- Relocate tranny cooler ( Was a hack job by EP)
- Install the correct powdercoated engine / compressor / dogbone bracket (My fault)
- Fill up with fresh fuilds
- Reconnect and convert A/C to Type R-134
_________________
Ok, so we were taking a tgp and putting the drivetrain into the SE.
Here is my opinion based on the reading, having been on both sides in the business and the anal consumer.
Sounds like he gave it a fair estimate. Turbo seemed to operate properly and compression was good on the motor. Tranny was obviously broken, so what was there to diagnose? Not much physcially can be done with it in the car.
Sounds like he gave you a fair estimate and diagnosis. Maybe he missed the shaft play on the turbo? Ok, so he tells you and gives you the choice. It wasn't originally included in the estimate, you had the choice to reuse the old one or take the professional recommendation and rebuild it. What if he had told you originally it was bad and it would be an extra $550 for a rebuilt one?
Same goes for the transmission. He opened it up to find a possible bad rebuild from before, so it would cost extra money. He could have priced this job out of reach. Rebuilt turbo and engine, new transmission just in case that one is grenaded and doesn't just need a basic rebulid, remove two drivetrains and reinstall one. $6000.
Quote from: Gearhead43
I was at the shop a few times during the swap, The TGP's engine harness was torn by the assc belt from a seized A/C Compressor. So EP has to resolder some of the wires back together. While I was inspecting the wiring (Which was only crimped together, not soldered) two of the wires come out of the crimp connecters. (Mind you, this is an engine harness!!!)
Was it specified to have it crimped or soldered? There are different views of what is neccesary for a quality repair in the industry and arguments againts soldering believe it or not. Obviously though it should be a solid repair
Quote
After a bottom line of $3450, EP finally get the swap together 3 months later. They stated the engine was running rough. Traced it to bad plugs.. Now I'm thinking after a swap like this, you would think one of the FIRST items to be replaced would be the PLUGS!!! But no.... Jeff tried leaving the OLD ones in.. When they had to replace the plugs, they CHARGED ME $75 bucks for 6 PLUGS!! ON top of the 3450 for the swap!!!
Was the charge for plug price, or plugs and installation? Were plugs specified to be changed in the original estimate?
Quote
Found out that EP:
- Scratched my newly painted F-Brace (Refused to pay for)
- Wedged the Flex-a-lite Tranny Cooler between the bumper and the bra. So I could not get the bra off the clean the car.
- Left the AC line off the compressor (Says he forgot to TELL me about it)
- Only changed upper and lower Radiator Hose. All other OEM hoses where left Org. OEM parts. For those of you who know the TGP, ou know all the rubber hose crap connecting the various plumbing in the engine.
- Told me he was going to add the ST Springs since it was going to be easier while doing the swap. Didn't install them. He kpt complaining that he was doing all this extra work.. Wen if facyt he didnt do half of what he was required.
These items certainly do seem to be fair complaints.
Quote
Turbo saga <snip>
I'm thinking , OK, It needs to be rebuilt AGAIN.. FOR FREE it better be!!!!!
Why SHOULD it be free. Something outside of the materials and workmanship on the turbo damaged it.
Quote
He will rebuild the turbo at no cost to you, but the new center section will cost you 325.00..."[/b] DUHHHHHH ...That's not free ANYMORE DUMBASS!!! What the hell happened to such a THING CALLED a WARRANTY!!!!!!
Never said free did he. But he would supply the labor and other parts to rebuild it and only charge you for the part that was damaged by an outside circumstance. Sounds fair to me. More than most turbo builders would do.
Quote
Well EP performed a compression check on this engine before starting the work on it.... 170-175 PSI Compression was verified by EP...
With 140k, a compression check can't see inside the motor or check the condition of the many various parts of the engine, especially built up crud.
All in all, I don't really see what the major complaint is to call this guy a complete crook. His level of work might not have been up to your standards, but for the most part sounds like he did what you originally agreed to, and agreed to along the way. He also did what he could to stay in budget, and really close to the original estimate. In all reality, most places I've dealt with are not up to my level of standards either which is why I started doing my own work. But those standards cost money, much more money than you were charged. 3 months time is a little long, but this isn't "Overhaulin'"
Quote from: Jeff IanitelloThe engine had good compression and the turbo didn't smoke. The transmission had no OD. Yes, yes, yes. An estimate is an ES-TI-MATE! I guess you didn't/don't understand that. I guess your budget wasn't enough to do the job... but you know what? I DID IT ANYWAY!!!!!!!!! Give me a break, would'ya? I should have ended it it with sending home your car after spending what you had in your budget and telling you to bring it back when you could afford the rest!
Writing a low estimate is not reason for upping the price. That is called "Low-Balling". Service seller says, "Sure I can do it for $100"...yet when you go to pay for the job it is $1000. That in a court of law becomes your advantage. Any estimate that will rise above the written estimate must be authorized by the payee before works continues...unless you signed a "signature authorization" waiver saying you accept any cost or proposal above and beyond the signed "estimate of work". 8)
Right! Which is what I don't get. Once the job started and more serious damage was found, the options were presented and a choice was made. If the work was done, and at time of payment the price increased and no additional services had been agreed to and rendered, that would be a legal case.