Hey guys... I too am a graduate of V6Z24.com :)... still an awesome site though!
Anyway, I have a pretty heavily modded 3.2T (was 3.1L) but have some concerns and questions that i haven't really had answered by the J-body folk.
Here is my setup
3.2L Turbo (stock t-25 garrett)
255 lph in tank fuel pump
Stock Cavalier ECM and memcal
now we are tuning and we obviously have some timing/fuel issues. We plan on using an MSD DIS-4 box to pull timing, and use an adjustable procharger FMU to compensate for fuel.
I've been told that the stock TGP fuel injectors are no good after about 10 psi. Is this true?? Do I need to upgrade? Also, I was told that even though I've got a strong fuel pump, I should still throw in an inline pump or my in tank one will die on me sooner than expected. Are these both true??
I have a forged bottom end and provided eveything is tuned we're expecting 330ish crank HP. That's a biig if though seeing as how we can't seem to figure out our tuning issues.
So....
#1) Do I need to upgrade my injectors and what do you guys suggest. Also where to buy em would be good ;)
#2) Do I need an inline fuel pump now?
#3) Do you guys have any better tuning suggestions other than the MSD box and an FMU?
ANY help with this would be REALLY helpful guys. I know I'm new to the boards but we've been on this project for almost 4 years now and it's about time to finally get this DONE!
Any Thoughts?
Dave
Hey Dave
That Walbro 255 Pump will be fine for your engine.....im running the same one.
is this car a 5-speed or automatic???
as for computer tuning if your running the stock cavi chip, i suggest geting a modified TGP memcal and with www.gmpcm.com you can tune it to your liking.
was this a TGP engine you originally used or are you just using a T-25?
anyway need some more info :)
Get rid of the crap and tune that chip yourself. No MSD box, no FMU, just the chip. The injector thing is a big debate, there are 1 people (hey Jud!) using big injectors w/ little to no problem on stock code. Then there are other people (hey Davie) having problems w/ 24# injectors. So you'll get different answers on that one. If you want to go the mechanical way (FMU and box) Jud is probably your man. If you want to go the tuning route, hit up the tuning section and the link Davis gave you up top and that should get you going.
One more thing, I'll start the flaming:
Why the hell would you keep a T2-small w/ an engine modded like that? You'll never reach the potential of a forged bottom w/ a T25. Unless it's like a 2871 or something, in which case forged is overkill, but w/ a 330 goal I think it's safe to say it's not a stock T25. All in good fun, and welcome aboard. :D
That is something that never crossed my mind to run 2 fuel pumps. So others are using the in tank along with a walbro :?: LOng live the T-25!
Hey guys, thanks for the info thus far!!
To answer some of your questions...
it is a 3 speed automatic with a shift kit
this was a 3.1 turbo from a TGP that we basically tore apart and built up.
And yes, after doing A LOT of research, i'm going to have to agree that I should get rid of the FMU and MSD box and have chip burned.
And the reason we are keeping the small turbo is mainly because of the cost/power ratio so to speak. Since we can't run over 14psi b/c of the weak heads/gaskets/tranny and other weak points we decided to keep the t25. Like i said before... the v6z24 board didn't have too many TGP experts and in retrospect the forged bottom end might have been overkill :(:(:( but I was told that anything over 8psi would have popped a stock piston or 2.
Oh yeah, and any ideas how much timing I should be pulling when I burn a chip? I'm assuming 1.5-2 degrees/pound of boost? Sound about right?? Anything more specific would help though ;)
THANKS GUYS!... I feel right at home :)
oh yeah, and who are the chip burning people I should contact?
Quote from: ZoTurboAnd the reason we are keeping the small turbo is mainly because of the cost/power ratio so to speak. Since we can't run over 14psi b/c of the weak heads/gaskets/tranny and other weak points we decided to keep the t25. Like i said before... the v6z24 board didn't have too many TGP experts and in retrospect the forged bottom end might have been overkill :(:(:( but I was told that anything over 8psi would have popped a stock piston or 2.
Just because you can't run over 14psi doesn't mean you should keep the T25. 14psi on a T25 is like 10psi (or maybe less) on a 2871R or something like that. The T25 is very inefficient and really sucks. You'd make WAY more power with a better turbo.
You can run 14psi just fine on a stock bottom end. I wouldn't have touched it if the engine ran fine. I run 12psi daily on pump gas (premium of course) on my almost 110k TGP engine and this is pulling the weight of a w-body...no problems at all whatsoever. (so do many others on here) The bottom end takes it and I really beat the piss out of it. I used to run 12psi daily in my STE until I did the engine work and don't have large enough injectors anymore and it had no problems, and my dad has been running 11psi daily in his TGP for the last 35k miles or so with absolutely no problems, besides the fact that its starting to get some higher miles on it and the rings are worn so it smokes under full boost.
Shawn
so seeing as how this boost is 'less powerful' are you saying I can safely crank it higher simply b/c it's a T25??
Dave
Well I would think 35lbs injectors or so would be ideal for your power goal just to be on the safe side. 270hp is about all the 22lbs have at 92% DC and 60psi of fuel at 10psi of boost, and BSFC of .55(according to Jeffs fuel rise and DC.)
Hit summit or ebay for a score of them. I got mine from a 98 GTP..(some slight mods to the GTP injectors is needed to get them to work).
That pump you have is good for your goal. Porting the fuel rail like I did won't hurt though. (pic soon...don't know how this mod would help under 300hp)
On tunning...a reprogrammed TGP code on your car would do wonders compared to all those gizmos combined. Search the Chip tunning section for some hitnts and know how. and going to syty.net won't hurt to see some of their tunning advice and pointers.
AS far as the T25..its flow rating is about 260hp at around a PR of 2. So the 3.2 would be about 250-280hp tops with a good IC (bringing the desity ratio to pressure ratio values)and free flowing exhaust. An upgrade is needed for higher goals. BTW..is your engine just a overbore 3.1..and nothing more?...IE..like ported heads, cam, ported intake. Maybe your only limited to 14psi at lower rpms and 8-4psi at higher rpms with the t25. BTW..I was pushing 10psi WITH NO COOLER on a ported, camed engine on the t-tinywinnie. NO problems with engine meltdown. Only time you need to worry about broken parts is when you run lean, over rev, have too much boost at tooo low of rpm ,or too much spark advance.
The heads are fine..I don't know how you got the idea they are weak. If you overheat them..then yes..they will fail just like any aluminum head would. Gaskets are good. I hear the "Detroit" Stock gasket is better than the Felpro. I say gaskets are good for 350hp and would need wire ring beyond 300hp for more duability. Contace Jeff M. on wire ring specs. You could also get the copper gaskets..but require tight tolerances to head and block.
I can truely say that the 3t40 thats in your cavi is a WEAK SUCK if you don't have high performance clutches and band. The shift kit (transgo or superior?)will save your hide for right now. I have a fully built tranny that "Should" hold my goal of 300-400hp. This includes high performanche clutches, high energy band, shift kit, buillet pumpshaft, buillet boost accumulator, and some stiffen accumulators ,and some other secret wepons 8) . Don't waste your $$ on a 5spd just yet. This trans can surpass the 5spd and some change if done right.
The spark retard is idealy 1.5-2*. But every rpm and powerband is different..might be .5* at one point and 4* at another. Tunning is golden.
Nuff said. Take notes..and SAVE AS :lol: .
haha, thanks man... 'save as' indeed :lol:
www.jcob2.com
click the project zoturbo link on the left. that'll give you an idea of what we are dealing with. I REAALLLY wish I woulda known about this site when we started this project :( lotta goodies here that i didn't know b4.
So provided I get some 36lb injectors AND a chip tuning is there any reason I can't crank the boost a little higher?... say 18-20?
Dave
Quote from: ZoTurboso seeing as how this boost is 'less powerful' are you saying I can safely crank it higher simply b/c it's a T25??
Dave
No, I'm saying that its so small an inefficient, that even though its making lets say 14psi, its like only having 10psi on another turbo. But the air at 14psi is still really really hot with the T25 so you can't go higher boost because its really inefficient. I would definately not run 18-20psi...you'll probably go slower and blow something up in the process. The tiny T25 is WAY too inefficient at those boost levels. You probably wouldn't want to go much over 12psi with it.
Shawn
i belive the T25 Chokes at 14-15 PSI
man where were you guys 3 years ago when I started this thing! :( coulda spent the money MUCH better!
Well I wrote this yesterday but never sent it. :oops:
You guys Jay, Shawn, TurboGTU pretty mush hit it on the head accept for a couple of things that I'll coment on. :roll:
Yesterday
Welcome Dave,
No matter if your new people will still answer your questions.
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but your T25 to small won't get you near 330 RWH. After 10 or 11# the air turns to shit. It?s just spinning too fast. Its good for maybe 240 HP. If your looking for those kind of numbers go to the GT series (almost bolt on) or T3 style. The GT28 at 5# is faster than the T25 at any # so you can imagen what it?s like at 10# or more.
#1
To get 240 HP your TGP injectors will be at 100 duty cycle. So a litter bigger would help. With a GT turbo you will be in the 30 36# range.
#2
As Dave said that pump should be fine. Is it the HP?
#3
If you have the Dis 4 use it. Is your FMU a RRFMU? If not get one. You will be up and running 6 mo before you learn to reprogram chips.
Today
As long as you don?t lean out you won?t hurt heads or pistons. Pistons will go long before the heads but if you don?t get it shut down in a hurry you will take the head out to. :cry: Been there done that to many times.
I pull out from 3 to 5* with the Dis 4 depending on boost. With the T25 I don?t think you will ever have to pull timing especially if you have the TG chip. He pulls out a lot of timing. The MSD is one heck of an enhancement to the stock ignition. You also get
2 rev limits plus timing retard.
Best of both worlds is learn to program the chip and have the gizmos to tune with. You can?t reprogram the chip at the strip ( well I guess you could but kind of im-practical) but you can alter fuel and retard and boost with what you have. Even if I was chip tuning I would have the gizmos. (gizmos, I like that word cause I have a bunch of them) :D At one of my strips it goes from 90+ to 70-*in hours and the fuel adjustment is crucial. Being able to take 30# injectors to 36# injectors is a real PLUS although I think I have the 30?s maxed out.
You can disconnect your boost control and you will never be able to use 36# injectors with the T25. Your noes will hit the stering wheel the first time you punch it.
Quote from: ZoTurboman where were you guys 3 years ago when I started this thing! :( coulda spent the money MUCH better!
Right here although we didn?t have the knowledge we have now. There has been a ton of data pumped into this and the other website in the last three years.
Quote from: Prospeederi belive the T25 Chokes at 14-15 PSI
You are better off to limit it to around 10 to 11# unless you want to go slower.
Quote from: dbtk2Quote from: ZoTurboso seeing as how this boost is 'less powerful' are you saying I can safely crank it higher simply b/c it's a T25??
Dave
No, I'm saying that its so small an inefficient, that even though its making lets say 14psi, its like only having 10psi on another turbo. But the air at 14psi is still really really hot with the T25 so you can't go higher boost because its really inefficient. I would definately not run 18-20psi...you'll probably go slower and blow something up in the process. The tiny T25 is WAY too inefficient at those boost levels. You probably wouldn't want to go much over 12psi with it.
Shawn
I never could ge more than 16# with my T25, that?s when I learned that lower was beter.
And Dave if you can get the T25 to 18 to 20# PLEASE let me know how you did it. Might be possible on a 1.8 lt 4 banger.
Quote from: TurboGTUHit summit or ebay for a score of them. I got mine from a 98 GTP..(some slight mods to the GTP injectors is needed to get them to work).
What did you do to the injectors and where did you find out what to do :?:
Well I am tired, past this old mans bed time. :P
Good job guys jumping in with a newbe, wish we had more that are trying to tune. i am tired of fixing the brake light switch. :cry:
Hay Davis are you running ok yet? Pm me if you want to fix it. :wink:
Dave hope you figure out what you want to do. Good luck
Believe me am not bashing you chip tuners. I apalud your progress.
II am just of the old school, air + fuel + timing make a motor go. After running a C/alterd a A/ alterted , a DD dragster, an A/G drasgter I have just reverted to the GIZMOS. they seem to work well for me. :D Seeing I have the fastes TGP on th planet. :D
Well I think I an done rattling.
Jud
sleeperred90tgp-
QuoteWhat did you do to the injectors and where did you find out what to do
I just made new slots on the top of the injector to lower them into the lower intake as they were too short. They are perfectly sectioned and pressure tested leak free. I did get some notes from one of your old post about Lt1 or ls1 injectors needing to be lowered (remembered injectors looked the same)..was it you?? Cain't remmeber. 8) See..I do take notes :wink: .
But what fuel pressure and BSFC are you using for TGP injectors to be maxed at 240? I keep getting about 1 to 1 fuel rise and turbochaged engines using a BSFC of .55 ..or is it because you rose the BSFC to .58 or .6?
well seeing as how the entire world recommends a better turbo... any recommendations? I noticed you listed 2 in your post but keep in mind that I don't know what those mean... I'M NEW TO THE TURBO/TGP WORLD! :) thanks SOOOOOOO much for all your help guys! You have no idea how long it would have taken me to figure this crapp out on my own on the v6z24 boards.
So for now... I need to get some 36 lb injectors, and MSD box, a chip tuning, and a better turbo... sigh... better hit the lotto soon ;)
Dave
Quote from: TurboGTUsleeperred90tgp-QuoteWhat did you do to the injectors and where did you find out what to do
I just made new slots on the top of the injector to lower them into the lower intake as they were too short. They are perfectly sectioned and pressure tested leak free. I did get some notes from one of your old post about Lt1 or ls1 injectors needing to be lowered (remembered injectors looked the same)..was it you?? Can?t remember. 8) See..I do take notes :wink: .
But what fuel pressure and BSFC are you using for TGP injectors to be maxed at 240? I keep getting about 1 to 1 fuel rise and turbochaged engines using a BSFC of .55 ..or is it because you rose the BSFC to .58 or .6?
Yea it was me that posted the picture of the extra slot in the LT1(or multi-tech 2 I think injectors) long time ago. Glad to see somebody else using them. With just that change I dropped over a tenth. I was just wondering If I had missed something.
As far as the max injector flow. That was an approximation that I remembered from a few years ago. I generally use .55 as the BSFC. Here is the site I use for most everything. Just register and all but a couple of calculations are free. The turbo calculator was free 6 mo ago, now I think its $5 a month. At the time I used it, it didn't have the Gt series turbos but it did give you volume of air. Don't know what it has now.
http://www.smokemup.com/
How is your restoration coming along?
Quote from: ZoTurbowell seeing as how the entire world recommends a better turbo... any recommendations? I noticed you listed 2 in your post but keep in mind that I don't know what those mean... I'M NEW TO THE TURBO/TGP WORLD! :) thanks SOOOOOOO much for all your help guys! You have no idea how long it would have taken me to figure this crapp out on my own on the v6z24 boards.
So for now... I need to get some 36 lb injectors, and MSD box, a chip tuning, and a better turbo... sigh... better hit the lotto soon ;)
Dave
Unfortunately if you want to go fast it takes cubic money. :wink:
You can get by with the stock ignition although it does take chip tuning to alter it.
As far a turbos if you stick with the new GT series with the t25 style exhaust which is a bolt on other than the oil and water lines which use banjo fittings(available on the net or at any import speed shop)The top of the line Gt turbos are GT3076, 3071, 2871, 2540 which run about $1200.00. These are rated at 400+ Hp and flow from 40 to 45# a minuet. Then there is the GT28 and the GT28RS. I have seen the 28 for as low as $750.00, the 28 RS is still in the $900 - 1000.00 range but all these gt series are coming down in price. On paper my GT28 is putting out about 325 HP which is about what it?s rated for. All of the GT?s have the T3 compressor or bigger and the T28 turbine which is the limiting factor.
The exducer on the turbine is just under 2? which hinders the flow.
Then there is the T3 family of turbos where you are just about unlimited in HP but you will have to change the crossover flange and the down pipe. Major fabrication. You can bolt a T3 to your xover flange but I have yet to understand this concept unless it?s for cost. T3?s can be had from $400 up in all kinds of varities and is actually the best choice if you want to get over 450 Hp.
I would start out with 30# injectors. I know they work. I haven't been to the track yet with the 36#but my seat dyno says they are what I needed.
What ever you do sneak up on the boost and gradually back down the fuel. Watch 4 and 6 cyl carefully as they seem to be the ones that distruct.
A biger turbo is alot of fun but it is also a bomb waiting to exploed.
:roll:
Search the net. Just type in turbos and you will get a million hits. Check the prices and do a lot of reading. And don?t forget ebay.
Have fun and good hunting.
Jud
thanks again for the wisdom... I looked around and it turns out I will most likely be going with something in the T3 family. We can fabricate a flange pretty easily... I mean, just take the X-over you have now and the turbo to a machine shop and they set you straight for about $100-$150. As for the downpipe, I'm sure they could do the same thing for us... that's what we did with the TGP turbo and the cavalier... the downpipe didn't fit so we cut the part we needed and they fabbed the rest for like $50.
Find a good exhaust and machine shop and you won't have a clearance issue in the world!! Anywho, thanks again for the 2 cents... i still think we'll be gettin some 36# injectors though just to keep my options open. Oh yeah, we're burning a chip and Marcel hasn't done one for a 3 speed auto before... anyone have any advice on this one?? :(
THANKS AGAIN... AND AGAIN! :)
Dave
Yea...I used the .55 BSFC alot. According to this fuel flow calculator at the bottom...http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm....at 48psi of fuel (43psi base/48psi line pressure due to 5psi manafold boost)..the max fuel flow at 92% DC is 233hp. Might be missing something. :?: :?: In any event..fuel injector upgrades are a must beyond T25 specs so I just got tired of playing with the stock units.
QuoteYou can bolt a T3 to your xover flange but I have yet to understand this concept unless it?s for cost.
That would be me.. :wink: . This is a budget build..so I kept the TGP x-over (though I want to flowbench it still). The pipe size and T25 flinge size seem good enogh to me...as any T3 has its internal ports no bigger than a t25 flinge. It has a bigger inlet than a t25..but just botle necks way down before it even curves down.
The restoration is comming along slow. I just got the headliner, front valance and door handle. Im also now looking for GTP brake upgrade as it needs roters already. Looking for a PMIII alternitive (hydroboost)..as I don't want to spend $$$$ for a rebuilt. Or even a aftermaket Dual setup if my Fix attempt at the PMIII doesn't work. Need garage now to put it in to strip it down to metal and sand primer sand.
THe 3spd should be fine. TGP has Over Drive..but the ECM will think its in Drive.
THose MSD are good for build boost at line without Brake tq the hell out of the car with a big turbo. Just retard the timing at the hole shot and thats it. HTough mine will be in the chip 8) .
can you tell me exactly what turbo you used because I obviously need something better than the T25... I wouldn't mind using the TGP x over, flange, and downpipe either so I am interested to see what turbo you used that just bolted on.
Dave
Are you talking to me or TufboGTU?
He put a T3 on.
What i don't understand with that is how with the small T25 flange how the t3 is going to push the turbine.
Oh well I am just a lame braine. And it's way past my bed time.
Jud
If you put on a t-25 it will absolutely shred. Turbo GTU I think he put on a IHI off a duramax deisel.
As far as T28 turbo upgrades go..Which ever Jud (sleeperred90tgp) recomended.
On the T3 style..A Super60 T3 or a hybrid T4/T3 like a TO4 50 trim with a T3 stage III turbine wheel. and .63 or .82 housing. Corky Bells' book "Maximum Boost" is some good reading to fimiliarise yourself with the turbo world.
On the T3..the only thing I used off the old setup was the x-over pipe..nothing more. THe down pipe, up pipe had to go. BUT if you do have GOOD welders..then by all means..use them! YOu can just make a new x-over pipe and reposition the turbo to your liking.
Dang..only if I could link you to my old post..but oh well.
T2 Vs T3 flinge...(made holes for T3 here already).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/TurboGTU/poolcam102.jpg)
Not too much difference, but it will work.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/TurboGTU/0419fe89.jpg)
T3 on the x-over..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/TurboGTU/67b60b84.jpg)
What it is now...somewhat..hehe.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/TurboGTU/TurboGTU2/poolcam148.jpg)
Heres the drilled out fuel rail feed line I was talking about.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/TurboGTU/TurboGTU2/poolcam166.jpg
I don't think the small hole can feed 300Plus HP without some HIGH pressure.
I saw the picture, is this right where the fuel line connects to the injector manifold?
Nope..where the fuel rails connect to the fuel pressure regulator.