Hypothetical. I've always wanted a TGP, but unfortunately, they're not a common sight here in Hawaii. Neither is the '89 TTA, but I own one of those. How would the TGP fare against the TTA? My guess is not very well - unless the TGP was modded and the TTA was stock (like mine).
Hawaii eh.... 8)
What year TTA??
the 1980 Turbo TA or the 25th Aniversary 3.8 Turbo TA
Oh, sorry, I should've been more specific. The '89 LC2 one. I'm not a huge fan of the later second-gen cars, unless it's a '77 or '78.
Can you show us some pictures? :D I want to check out one of those cars so bad! I have heard about them but want to see. :)
And I would try to race you because I am cool with losing to another Pontiac and I just like to race people :lol:
You would have to race me here in Oregon though because it is rainy as hell here and that way I would hook up better and probly smoke ya.;)
same engine as the Buick GN's in that TTA.....3.8 Turbo
(http://motoexotica.com/vehicles/815/1.jpg)
(http://motoexotica.com/vehicles/815/23.jpg)
TGP will not keep up to that..
most definetely wouldn't. those are about the only f-bodies you would catch me driving. 8)
Oh thats bad ass :), if my research has been correct, the ONLY GM vehicle to come with a 3-Bar MAP sensor from the factory?
either way, very nice, any other info on it?
I don't remember exactly what those TTA's ran stock, but I can safely say without refreshing my memory, that basically every single TGP, modded or not, on this board would get a nice spanking by a TTA. Now GTP vs. TTA would be a different story.
Shawn
I would it guess it depends on how fast the go. Under 13*? No Idea.
Jud
Magazine times seem to have a good bit of variance in the TTA's. Some examples:
13.5@103 mph
13.4@101mph
14.21@97.8mph
14.18@95.8 mph
13.9@99.5 mph
Stock vs. stock without a doubt is going to go to the TTA. A pretty good modded TGP should be able to match or beat some TTA's(if they do run as those magazine tests reflect....the high 13/low 14 second ones anyways).
Oh yeah, here's a list of 1/4 mile times for some of our TGP's here.
http://home.alltel.net/mfewtrail
3-bar map sensor? that is for like 15- 30 psi or something. They came stock with a 3-bar? That would spank a TGP on dry ground.
I dunno those cars are so light in the ass end. I have grown to like my front wheel drive turbo. If I wanted to walk the ass around a parkin lot and look like all these Camaros getting shitty. No its got more coolness factor, and I would try to get it into the 12's and know who I would ask to help, The GN boys in town here with timeslips in the 12s.
Also understand that the magazines/reviews of that time were censored by GM because no GM vehicle could post times or HP/Tq ratings that are higher than the Corvette of that specific year.
Even a
modded TGP/TSTE would have an extremely hard time keeping up with a
Stock 1989 TTA.
Most TTA's and GN's for 1989 had un-official GM hp #'s were up and around 300+ HP
Quote from: http://www.89tta.com/ttafaq.htm#WhyOnly250If the TTA really made 300 HP why did GM rate it at "only" 250 HP?
The generally accepted explanation is GM's unwritten rule which states no passenger vehicle shall have a higher horsepower rating than that year's Corvette.
In 1989 the Corvette was rated at 255 HP.
engine: 3.8L SFI V6 Intercooled Turbo
GM rated 250 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 340 lb-ft torque @ 2800 rpmWith a 3340 Curb weight it is only 140lbs heavier than TGP coupe and 40lbs heavier than the TSTE... :wink:
The previous owners of mine ran a 13.8 bone stock. Added a chip, went 13.2. I haven't gone myself, and I probably wouldn't be able to launch the car properly - power-braking is still a mystery to me. Some quick specs, not complete...
231 cid, or 3.8 for the metric folk
8:1 compression, with modified heads from the 3800 FWD engine
16.5 PSI boost with Garret T3 intercooled turbo
rated at 250 hp at 4400 rpm, 340 ft/lbs at 2800 rpm
200R4 four-speed automatic transmission
3.27:1 Borg-Warner limited-slip diff.
weighs 3346 lbs, but depends if it's a hardtop or t-top model. Most were t-tops with leather seats. Mine is t-tops and cloth, whhich were more rare.
EDIT: Oh, I don't doubt that a modded L67 GTP could beat a stock TTA. I see a GTP with a bunch of stuff on it, and I give it some healthy respect - he could be pushing more boost then me, and some weight loss and sticky tires and I would see some tail lights.
3800 heads instead of stock 3.8, so the engine would clear the lower hood line. 3-Bar Map for boost gauge only, bummer as there would be an huge untold amount of people hacking that chip setup into their turbo ride 8)
Jeff M
Quote from: pvt num 11EDIT: Oh, I don't doubt that a modded L67 GTP could beat a stock TTA. I see a GTP with a bunch of stuff on it, and I give it some healthy respect - he could be pushing more boost then me, and some weight loss and sticky tires and I would see some tail lights.
GTP's wouldn't be pushing more boost than you unless someone did a turbo swap. Roots blowers are very inefficient and the M90 isn't barely big enough for the engine anyways, so non-intercooled typically they run about 11-12psi, intercooled typically 14-15psi. My dads GTP set the highest stock cam dyno record and 1/4 mile record and he was making 16psi, and thats with the smallest pulley that can be used on the stock M90 blower and have it still be efficient, and it took lots of tuning and lots of heat management (insulated everything) to make it be able to push that kind of boost with no KR. Anyone running more boost than that is either getting a lot of KR or running a newer M90.
Shawn
The newer GTP's, they're not using the L67, are they? I heard they're using something else, but basically it's still a 3800 with a blower.
My old daily beater was an '89 SE, with the n/a 3.1, man I loved that car... I sure wouldn't mind a TGP or an STE (most likely an STE, I'm sick of two-door cars now) for a daily ride, to avoid racking up the mileage on the TTA.
Quote from: pvt num 11The newer GTP's, they're not using the L67, are they? I heard they're using something else, but basically it's still a 3800 with a blower.
My old daily beater was an '89 SE, with the n/a 3.1, man I loved that car... I sure wouldn't mind a TGP or an STE (most likely an STE, I'm sick of two-door cars now) for a daily ride, to avoid racking up the mileage on the TTA.
Newer GTP's use the L32, also called the Series III 3800. Its basically an L67 except it has different rods (IIRC they are actually a little weaker) and it has the Gen V M90 blower instead of the Gen III the Series II L67's got.
TGP's are great beaters IMO especially if you have a quick summer car. I know there are a lot of people on here that hate thinking about TGP's as beaters, but they are nice cars so you don't have to lose much luxury or speed, and they are cheap. My dad bought his TGP so he wouldn't have to drive his GTP in the winter or bad weather and he loves it. They are cheap, and its actually fairly quick so it doesn't feel rediculously slow when he gets in it after driving the GTP. I'll be using my TSTE as a beater next winter (not this winter) after I get a new engine in my '86 TA and get some body work done and new wheels and all that. The TA will be my summer ride, and the STE will be something thats comfortable a quick to drive the rest of the time.
Shawn
yea, TGP's or ws in general arnt worth enough to really warrent driving only on weekends on perfect days, i use mine for daily driver, body damage and mechanical issues are repairable, so thell never *really* die
The Series III engine actually has the stronger rods as far as I know Shawn. I seem to remember some guys using them in their performance buildups anyways.
My TGP will never become a daily driver, I plan to keep it as it is now for a long long time. 8) That's not to say I don't drive it at all though.....I've put a bit shy of 2K on the car in the past 18 months.
I need some new pictures, haven't taken any of the car since around May...which is unusual for me. :drinking:
http://home.alltel.net/mfewtrail/images/turbo_gp.jpg
My goal has been always to make my car a daily driver. but it has been a monthly driver :shock: :lol: a month on the road followed by a month off the road. the month off the road costs me $100 to $1000 never more, never less.
But over all I have spent less money than a new car which is what everyone tells me I need.
Fixing it is never more than car payments.
The TGP is worth dumping money into, unlike my Frod.
Quote from: mfewtrailThe Series III engine actually has the stronger rods as far as I know Shawn. I seem to remember some guys using them in their performance buildups anyways.
When it first came out everyone was using the rods in their builds, and then IIRC someone did some research and found out they were weaker or something. There was a big argument about it on clubgp and I can't remember what the final conclusion was, but either way, its not like the rods in the Series II are weak so it doesn't much matter.
Shawn
Quote from: dbtk2TGP's are great beaters IMO especially if you have a quick summer car. I know there are a lot of people on here that hate thinking about TGP's as beaters...
Well.....no offense, but....your dad is using a TGP as a beater to save a run of the mill, '97 & up GTP. I'm not trying to downplay what his GP means to him, or anything. I understand he put a lot of time, effort and money into it, and that's great. But....in the end, it is still just a dime a dozen car that will have plenty available for sale in decent shape YEARS down the road to mod like mad, if one so desires, unlike the much more scarcely scattered decent shape TGPs/TSTEs. I'm not saying it shouldn't be driven at
all in the winter, or anything to that nature (if that's what I was saying, I'd be a hypocrite). I realize that these are the only cars for many members, here. But to purposely buy a TGP with the sole intention of using it for crappy whether, especially to save an "ordinary" vehicle....well....that's just wrong IMO.
Quote from: dbtk2they are nice cars so you don't have to lose much luxury or speed, and they are cheap.
So are '92 & up Bonneville SSEi's. So are many other cars, for that matter. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why, with so many choices out there to fulfill those needs, one would go out and seek a rare, unique car to serve the purpose of a beater.
wow, passion, lol, yea, it seems a little wierd to get a beater for a run of the mill car, then use a rare car as a beater
Quote from: dbtk2Quote from: mfewtrailThe Series III engine actually has the stronger rods as far as I know Shawn. I seem to remember some guys using them in their performance buildups anyways.
When it first came out everyone was using the rods in their builds, and then IIRC someone did some research and found out they were weaker or something. There was a big argument about it on clubgp and I can't remember what the final conclusion was, but either way, its not like the rods in the Series II are weak so it doesn't much matter.
Shawn
Ah, I just caught up on that info a little while ago by searching the board. The L32 rods are the weak ones like you said.
Hey..I just notice that TTA doesn't have a Wallet Master (Power Master) :D . So its BETTER than a GN.. :lol: .
I wonder how GM wieght down the TTA and GN? Or is it a conspiracy :shock: .
Speaking of Rare Beaters.. I know of two people here in town that use Caddilac Alantes as beaters. :o .
IF I had a Enzo Fararri..I would beat the F*&* out of it. $100K+ ..dam stright im getting my moneys worth. My GTU..you know im dogging that thing. Aint modding it to puss foot it :wink: . Now if it was a Model T or something more rare like OUR Prototype Turbo GP..then yea.. I'd keep that thing car show or museum only. But like a certin late night host that drives turbine engine bikes and Turbo oldmobiles..I would cruze in them now and then. :)
Considering I use my TTA as a daily driver (Sacrilege! Blasphemer! Heretic! Heathen!) I wouldn't really mind if I had an STE for daily use, rare or not. I guess I have expensive tastes in cars. Winters? In Hawaii? More like 'the rainy season'... Snow is unheard of here on Oahu.
Wallet Master...? :?: I'm afraid I'm nto familiar with the Powermaster... If you mean the speed limiter that all G-bodies came with, then no, the TTA does not have a speed limiter at 117 MPH or whatever rediculous low number they set the G-body ECM's at. Not that I've seen a hundred in my TTA yet, my alignment is a bit off and I'd really hate to wreck it in a fit of stupidity.
well, the STE's and Grand prixs period are W-bodies 88+, and the Powermaster is a braking system, that things always go wrong constantly and everything is outragously exspensive
Quote from: RareGMFanWell.....no offense, but....your dad is using a TGP as a beater to save a run of the mill, '97 & up GTP. I'm not trying to downplay what his GP means to him, or anything. I understand he put a lot of time, effort and money into it, and that's great. But....in the end, it is still just a dime a dozen car that will have plenty available for sale in decent shape YEARS down the road to mod like mad, if one so desires, unlike the much more scarcely scattered decent shape TGPs/TSTEs. I'm not saying it shouldn't be driven at all in the winter, or anything to that nature (if that's what I was saying, I'd be a hypocrite). I realize that these are the only cars for many members, here. But to purposely buy a TGP with the sole intention of using it for crappy whether, especially to save an "ordinary" vehicle....well....that's just wrong IMO.
Quote from: dbtk2they are nice cars so you don't have to lose much luxury or speed, and they are cheap.
So are '92 & up Bonneville SSEi's. So are many other cars, for that matter. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why, with so many choices out there to fulfill those needs, one would go out and seek a rare, unique car to serve the purpose of a beater.
Well, first off let me explain a few things. His GTP is a 2002 40th Anniversary GTP, it has the two tone interior, special hood, roof fences, spoiler, wheels, etc..., its not just a "run of the mill GTP". Also, the car ran 12.08 when it had the stock cam in it, it now has an XP cam in it, so when he gets it to the track it should run ~11.6's or so. On dry pavement you can't get traction at WOT until over 50mph, and with half throttle you can't get traction until 30 or so, in the rain you can barely drive it, I can't imagine what it would be like in the snow, its just not something you can really drive in the winter, and WHY ruin a $30k car with the salt (espeically one with $10k+ in mods) when you can drive around in a $1500 car that without a lot of work to preserve it, will never really be worth much. I don't think you would drive around an 11 second car in the winter, but I don't know you very well so maybe you would???
There is nothing wrong with an SSEi to drive around or lots of other cars, however he was looking on ebay one night for a beater, it was around October of '02, saw a TGP on there with 103k for $1500, bought it and went and picked it up, he was just looking for a cheap car, he wasn't even looking for something quick at the time, its just what he stumbled across, and its not like most people on here store theirs in the winter anyways. Some do, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you don't give the people who use theirs as a daily driver shit. My dads is basically his daily driver except on nice days when he wants to drive his other car. Its not like he doesn't take care of the TGP, it just sees winters and bad weather. He maintains it like any other car, parks it away from other cars to keep door dings off of it, it has nice tires on it, obviously he runs premium in it, he did a few performance mods even, and does normal tune ups and all that. Basically its a daily driver. When my dad went to pick up the TGP it just happened to be a nice car (its not
really nice, but better than most I see around here) and thats what he drove. If it would've been an SSEi then maybe thats what he would've bought. When he bought the car he had no clue it was rare, we had no idea at all, it wasn't until after he bought it that we found out it was rare, and then why sell it just due to the fact that it was rare. Its not like he went out an looked for a TGP, thats what he stumbled across. Thats how I got interested in them and found this forum, and then found my STE and so forth.
Shawn
I actually use My TGP as a daily driver too. But then again mine looks like crap. The paints chipping off, the interior is completely worn out, all the interior pannels are getting redone with new upholstery, but every mechanical part is in perfect shape (Power Master works proporly, Speedometer has been recalibrated, and the engine is sound). But if I had the chance I would drive my 1967 Plymouth Belvedere as a dailly driver also. Even in the SNOW! But thats just because everyone looks at the car when I'm driving down the road. Or because I'm just crazy.
Wasn't the TTA the only Trans Am to be used as a Nascar Pace Car? I also heard it was the Quickest production Trans Am built even against the 2002 model year (but I could be wrong about this).
No, I'm pretty sure an LS1 car is faster, especially the newer ones, but not by much. In good tune, they still run 13's stock, which is stock LS1 territory, give or take a little. I still hae a healthy respect for a late-model LS1 car, especially if it's a stick - better rear gearing.
I'd have to check on if they were the only Trans Am for Indy, I don't know for certain, they might have had one back in the seventies or something. I could be thinking of Daytona, though.
The 89 TTA ran 0-60 5.5 seconds, a 2002 Firehawk runs 0-60 in 5.2 (remeber this is SLP's version of the Trans Am). And the TTA did break 13's in the 1/4, but I don't know 100% what the numbers are for the LS1 (not trying to put down the LS1 because I've driven a 2002 Trans Am and that succker THROWS YOU INTO YOUR SEAT). http://www.89tta.com/ this has some good info on the 89 TTA. But back to being the quickest I heard them say than on "American Muscle Car" or one of those other shows on Speed Channel. But they had a special on it and quoted the TTA as being the "quickest production Trans Am," and that was after the 2002 model production year. I'll try to find out which episode it was to back myself up.
I drove a LS6 pork rind persuit Camaro that was retired. My friend picked it up at the city auction and tricked it all out with a rollcage and its getting a NOS bottle hooked up to it today.
But I drove it one time, DAMN it THROWS you back in the seat. I don't know how the tranny (or anything else) hold up to that power on a regular basis.
I don't see why the GN boys are doing 12s and the TTa is the same motor right? You should definately look into that.(I know you already thought of that :roll: )You probably could run 20 psi or more on that T-3 if it has a 3-bar, correct me if I am rong. :)
The GN was "unaffically" desighend to be a drag only car.
I can say the same for the Sy/Tys.
Our cars are more of a Rally type or oval track type.
You can run 20+ PSI on these cars - but there's a lot of stuff that needs to be changed out in order to do so reliably. Countless owners have done turbo swaps, as the stock turnbo isn't bad, but there's better ones in the aftermarket. Some move their intercooler to be in front of the radiator for more cool airflow, and some upgraded theirs to a better design - when the aftermarket carried one, which they don't right now, I think. If you love changing headgaskets, you can run as much boost as you want. Alky-injection kits are also highly reccomended if you run more then just a few pounds over stock. There are some GN's running nines, but they're pretty much track-only cars. You can get a TTA into the twelves for not a lot of money - not that I've tried with mine, yet.
The 3-BAR MAP sensor is strictly used for running the boost gauge and that information isn't fed to the ECM, unless you wnated to run a totally different EFI computer set-up - the car uses MAF to determine how much air it's feeding, and the MAF is mounted (in stock form) before the turbo, so air is sucked through it, not blown through it. Besides that, the stock boost gauge is inaccurate, so many owners change that out for an A-pillar one if they're really serious about monitoring how much boost they're running. That and a knock light. Detonation totally kills these cars. I assume it's the same thing for a TGP?
The TGP is actually not oo bad in the detonation dept. Just so long as you got a good knock sensor. but it doesn't have that problem because I have the Top Gun 160 chip which only uses like 10- 11 psi. and if I ever get overboost, the computer pulls timing. It is way better than stock chip but the safety features are all still built in, so that is nice.
The way most of us run TGPs they are pretty well under check by the computer.
Our stock boost gauge kinda sucks, I got one on my pillar.
Do they have a copper head gasket for higher boost for those.Thats what I would recommend.
Quote from: GangstGP
Do they have a copper head gasket for higher boost for those.Thats what I would recommend.
TTA's likely have any and every type of gasket they want whether it be MLS, graphite, copper, etc. judging by how many upgrades there are out there for them.
I guess since this is GN/T-Type (Turbo regal or TR) and TTA related I'll offer my bi-yearly comment.
TTA's are rare, 1500 numbered ever. They were tested to be the fastest STOCK production Trans Am. Even to the LS1. I recall the show that did the race with 3 stock TA's
The Turbo 3.8 LC2 is easily modified to produce way more power than stock. If stock is the mid to high 13's, in any of the 3.8L Turbo cars, very little money can get you reliably into the 11's. Nobody really concerns themselves with stock ratings. I have much more on my 02 TA and am only down to 13's (but it is lconvertible, lowered with short hard tires so I don't get much traction). Problem with the TTA is, well, it's rare. So are the upgrade parts that are specific to it (intercoolers etc.) Underhood room is more limited than the G-Body cars. The GOOD TRs were produced in some quantity for two years, 1986 and 87 and are very popular 1/4 cars. So there are several vendors who offer parts and upgrades for them. Even with extensive suspension mods I wouldn't recommend them for anything else. The chassis is way too flexy. Drag only car though? No more than the 125 hp 17 second normally aspirated base 3.8 regal. Just ends up that way because of what the car is. W-bodys and F-bodys were designed to be sporty and handle "well". The GNX tried to fix that with the redesigned rear that helped to plant the tires during acceleration from corners etc.
All TR/TTAs are Mass Air Metered. They Do NOT have closed loop boost control which makes the computer issues different from the LG5 which has closed loop boost control (read, the ECM knows the boost level). While it is directly not neccesary for the LC2 to know since it measures the air flow, it can run into problems as the octance level can't keep up with the knock tendancy at higher boost levels. I've rarely seen a melted pistons, usually the head gasket fails. I've seen some stock unopened engines run upwards of 25lbs of boost with few problems with 400 or more HP to the wheels and careful tuning.
Finally, lets face it guys. The TGP is cheap. With few exceptions, most are in poor shape. Very few people know they are rare, or care really. I didn't. Oddly it seems 88 fieros are more desireable. THey are neat fun cars with cool gadgetry and decent looks. That is why I bought my original one (see message board banner). It was sitting on a car lot and I had no idea what it was, except a myth. It would have been a really nice car if other things hadn't gotten in the way. There are a lot of beater TRs out there too, they'll still spank your ass though. Sometimes the uglier they are the faster they are. In my opinion, other than being numbered the TTA and the TGP could be in the same desireability category. Rare, not always well known, with signifigant historical aspects (indy and daytona pace cars in 89), but there are people who will drive both everyday as if it were a honda civic and treat it like it was worse to the point some just aren't worth restoring. I know guys who have parted out super rare GNXs... go figure.
CHRIS A in the House!!!!!!!!!
:headbang:
Quote from: Invasion1CHRIS A in the House!!!!!!!!!
:headbang:
8)
Topic related there are two Turbo 3.8 TA's on Ebay right now.......buy them up guys :wink:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Trans-Am-TTA-1989-Pontiac-TURBO-Trans-Am_W0QQitemZ4574537151QQcategoryZ6427QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Trans-Am-TRANS-AM-1989-20TH-ANNIVERSARY-TURBO-9K-MINT-SHOW_W0QQitemZ4574968177QQcategoryZ6427QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: Invasion1Topic related there are two Turbo 3.8 TA's on Ebay right now.......buy them up guys :wink:
Loan me $25K so I can get the low low mileage one..... :wink:
I'd like the higher mileage one - I wouldn't feel guilty driving it as much. I'd then relegate my 'beater' TTA as full-daily driven status, and keep the nicer one as a weekend/carshow vehicle. I remember seeing a TGP on Ebay some time ago, only 1500 bucks!
damn thats pretty good for a TGP. I want that mint one to drive around in the summertime 8) under 10K miles, brand new basically. Yea, I only want 4 cars for 4 seasons. TGP in the spring, TTA for summer, and you all know what for fall/winter. 8)
Quote from: pvt num 11I'd like the higher mileage one - I wouldn't feel guilty driving it as much. I'd then relegate my 'beater' TTA as full-daily driven status, and keep the nicer one as a weekend/carshow vehicle. I remember seeing a TGP on Ebay some time ago, only 1500 bucks!
My dad bought his TGP on ebay a few years ago (fall or winter of '03). It had 103k on it and was pretty much mint. Its a pretty damn nice car. I paid $1800 for my TSTE in Dec. of '03 with 69k on it, and it was pretty much mint (it did need a few little things).
Shawn
and the maroon tste is a very desirable car for a few reasons. that is insanely sweet you got it for that much! what a wonderful time we live in where it is right before all these cars become extremely hard to find.
a lot of them are going to be crushed, and a lot will be saved because of the internet. but with the price of steel going up drastically cars will be dragged across the scales more and more here soon. The muscle car era had the same thing happen to them in the 80s, the government used to pay people incentives to get their old gas guzzlers crushed.
I just hope it doesnt happen that way to the turbo era cars. kinda scary, but will be interesting to see the prices for desirable turbo era cars like the pace car muscle turbo movie star type.