I finally started the car today 8) . I am using the GTP 35lbs injectors on it. I've done the basic tune on it to see how it would run. I set the BPC VS DEGRC on all tables to 60 (factor 1) from 105. It started right up with no problem. Sounded preatty mean..but I know I was still rich (about 9:1). Plugs were black. I'll see what it does tommorow when I set it to 30 as I had to get to work.
I honestly doubt you'll need to go below 40... But post your results!
Do those injectors fit on the TGP fuel rail or have you made a different one along the way? 8)
Quote from: TGPilotDo those injectors fit on the TGP fuel rail or have you made a different one along the way? 8)
Just about any injector will fit our fuel rails. :D There is one multech 2 I think, it's thinner than ours but not the thinest requires another slot at the top to seat in the manifold properely. P/N begins with 280 ( bosch #)
Jud
When I was looking at the GTP injectors...I though I remembered seeing the Hatachi symbol. They look like the ford lima injectors. They are multec style. I did have to make a slot on top if the injector to seat the injectors down..since if I had installed them on the fuel rail like OE..it would not seal at the lower intake.
Latter today I'll get to see how 30 does. I didn't touch the car on sun or monday since I worked from sun rise to sun set :( .
Heres a quick vid of the first start up after who knows how long. It's nasty but I'll take it. :twisted:
http://media.putfile.com/Running-rich
Well I tried several more baseses. I even went to 10 and still ran pig rich. Found out it was my EEprom. I was using a 28c256. I programed one regular 27c..and it worked better at 30. 10 was just viglay ideling..if I gave it throttle it would die. I'll see what i do tommorow after I jack it down and put the header pannel and lights back on. I'll prob head down the the electronics parts store for a 29c. as Im down to 3 eproms. Wonder if I can erase them in a tanning booth :lol: .
Quote from: TurboGTUWonder if I can erase them in a tanning booth :lol: .
Maybe if you left it in there all day! :wink: :lol:
There are some inexpensive UV erasers out there. The expensive ones are serious overkill...will accomidate like 20 chips at one time. Newark InOne has one for $100...fits like 6 chips...but for a little one it packs a punch with 7mW/cm2 UV output. Would erase a chip in about 10 minutes. You could also go the route of an EEPROM since it sounds like you have an EPROM programmer. EEPROM just takes an electrical charge to erase it and much cheaper than buying a UV eraser... 8)
No tunning on wed :cry: . I had to get other parts on the car to get it road worthy. I've been playing with my old Labtop to get Datamaster on there...hope it works. Then latter today :roll: (go to sleep dammit)...I'll get the Amtel 29c256 eeprom. I heard they can be truble some..So i might look for a SST27SF256 eeprom if they have it at the electronics parts store which I dout they might have.
Well didn't go to electronics store ($6 of gas :roll: ). I got some data sheet of my CAT28C256-15 (15 is speed)...and looked at some 27C256 sheets (what come stock on memcals). Well everything seemed OK. Address buffers (A0-A12) seemed to be lined with the regular eprom. I/O (I/O 0-I/O 7) buffers seem to line with the Data (D0-D7) buffers on the regualr eprom. The only thing was that A14 and WE (write enable) were crossed between the two. On the 28c..Pin 1 is A14..and Pin 27 is WE. On the regular 27c..Pin 1 is Vpp (write enable I guess) and Pin 27 is A14.
I just crossed the two with jumpers and VUALA :o . I can program the CAT28c like a regular 27c and reprogram it in 27c mode on my Williams Programmer. It verifies every time. Neat 8) . Now I just need to Run it on the ECM. :wink: .
Other than this..I got everythign else done. Just needs more fine tunning. I now have my BPC at 50 up from 30 as it had a lean condition from part trottle and started to lean till it killed itself. I had lowered my lower rpm Base VE tables to TRY and compinsate for the rich idle (I must try even though :roll: ). It works WAY better (about 11:1 at idle-13:1 at rpm). I'll fine tune onece im on the road.
QuoteThis is the 3rd and final VE table. It is a one line table versus RPM only. So the way the VE works is this. The F30 table is used at all times, pulling a value based solely on RPM. Then, the ECM sees if you are at open or closed throttle. Based on that, it will use a value from either the F29 or F29E table, then it will add that value to the one it derives from the F30 table. So the final VE term is from 2 components. The F30 table value plus a value from the F29 or F29E table, depending on if at closed throttle or not.
I've read on the DIY-EFI forums that VE vs RPM doen't come into play at idle or part throttle.(when within F29 and F29E {what would our tables be called Jeff??..same?}. ON the GM Turbo P4 2.0 document..it says the same thing as the quoted form the SY/Ty site. I'm begining to think I'm not doing too much to lean out. SO BOTH TABLES? Well this SUCKS :? . If this is so..So idealy..I should only move the VE vs RPM first and only..if need more/less at idle..use idle VE..if at throttle..use VE at rpm and map...correct. :?: :idea: Guess this is why Scot got rid of one. Tunning Idle sucks...3 DAM talbes to move. :evil: :lol: .
Well I'll keep messing with this. I have about 14in of vacume at idle accoding to the Autometer now...compared to 5in of vacume when it was PIG rich. I cain't get IAC counts yet as my labtop doesn't want to WORK. :evil: . So BL is out of the qs right now. I can't get a good reading from the foude O2s (yes two 8) ,) . I need to clean them up with a torch :lol: and see where im at. I used SMELL-02 meter :lol: that I aquired from working on the 65 too much.
I'll also hook up my Oscilliscope to the Injectors to see the ACTUAL pulse width at idle. See if its actually going lower..or staying. What would be the ideal minimum palse width? Sappy said I would have a rich idle with thise injectors with PFI...HMMM..I recall PFI V8 guys using 60lbs with good idles. 29lbs isn't too far from 35. :?: :!: .
Well to be continiued...
Edit:...the crosed pined CAT28c worked flawless 8) .
Well messed with the code a little more (base VE, idle VE) and got my idle fuel PERFECT. I have a Data master scan of it ..but need a HOST..humm. My 02 hovers at .45 volts, My IAC counts are at 10 and vacume at idle is at 42KPA. Now I need to TAG the car for the other VE tables (Base VE, and VE vs RPM and MAP). Then after that DE tables.
Question..On idle VE..i've notice zero values (hex 00). Would idle VE tables be desabled if all Idle VE tables were zeroed out (hex 00). Think this is what Scot did....then again...The Question I had was why would GM make 3 dam talbes in the first place :?: . Why not just 2. Well I started thinking and its because the idle tables are to try and keep the engine alive :idea: . Ever notice a rich value(high VE) on the high vacume high idle side of Idle VE tables? :?: :idea: .
I'll keep posting here till my tune is complete..may take weeks months..even years..but dammit..I want people to see what it takes.
I got rid of my idle VE table..and it works ALSOME. I had a good "perfect" idle...but onece I got on the throttle..it did a lean, miss kinda thing...you can see it on the logs I have. Now..SMOOOTH. Though now DC is at .4 and PW is at .49 at idle, 37 kpa, and ZERO IAC counts. O2 for some reason didn't change much at .447..guess its time for some new O2s as thise are Ferbed up. THough my sell-o-2 meter says im at ideal or maybe 15:1. As before I though I was 13:1 or so...and though mybe I was wrong.
If your using a WINBIN 8F ecu file ..theres an Error with the Idle VE table. Theres should be only 4 rows and 13 colums. Rows 600rpm, 800rpm, 1000rpm and, 1200rpm. Colums stay the same. Before there were 6 rows. The additionals were 1400, and 1600. which is wrong..cuz they go into the Main VE table vs RPM and some ECU software settings.
Looks like you are learning quite well man!!
I will be following your lead here pretty soon when I get Luke's TGP back. Should be in the next week or two and she will be home! :wink:
Thats awsome. 8) .. Just be cautious of what I do :lol: . Injector swapping is by far the biggest problem child of tunning...compared to simple VE movements here and there..and some spark. :shock:
I still have that vid of you racing the mustang. 8) More soon I hope :twisted: .
Nothing much today..I just cleaned up some other tables at around idle. I just brake tq it to 4psi and wanted to stall, I waited a little longer till it went to closed loop did it again..and its FERAKING SWEET...No stalling, NO miss..nothing..just AWSOME. So I still need to mess with the other Map Ve tables around 60-80kpa. Dam tags :evil: .
OK..little update:
I've switched over to a 3 wire NGK O2 for the ECM to read. I was gettign tired of waiting for the O2 to register and not beeing sensitve to tunning. It also donsn't help its on the DP and not on the HOT fling ariea. Now I almost get into close loop instanly. It also changes quick to tunning. My old TGP O2 would fail if running rich..it would go from .45 volts to .5, .6 then to .2 and the ECM would then start to add MORE fuel. This one now goes from .45, .5, .6, .7 and stays about .75 where the ECM tries to lean the mix. This O2 doen't do a false lean condition when its rich. I also have a 4 wire just in case. And am thinking of making a LSU4 box...or buying one.
I've done a Driven test....unfortunately...MY "CAR" PC decited to crap out when I pulled out of the back yard. I had it connected to a power inverter on the cigarate lighter..so when I moved and took off...the socket came out and NO DATALOG. Also..now for some reason ..it goes crazy with the mouse controll. Its starts to flash the mouse pounter everyhwere..but you can move it with the mouse where ever it apperars..then dissapears again on another spot. I NEED A LABTOP!!!
Oh..yea...ITS FAST. I get about 5psi by 2500 rpm..and stays there. Its using a Mazda actuator. And I still have the boost controll disabled to be on the safe side while still tunning. It pulls hard all the way to 4000 when I shut it down. The whole idea of pulling the car out without tags that day was to get a data log...BUM...but it was still fun...LOL.
I want to put the camara soon just to show you how fun it is. ...and just in case the PC decieds to crap out again.
For some reason ..my dataloger seems to read rpms too low....or goes off at higher rpms. I have my park/neutral rev limit about 6900...raw hex 1AEB...and it seems to read 5500 rpm when it seems to hit rev limit. MY tach on the dash says its about 7K rpm. ?? MY data loger is Datamaster.
I've decited to get myself into more mess. I've messed with the injector flow rate and constant. And it changed everything. The reason I did that is because after a while in close loop..the ECM tries to overly lean when in RPM...IE..if Short term is at 80 at idle..if you rev the engine to 3K rpm..it will overly lean the mix till the rpms drop and stall the engine. YOu have to keep stabbing the peddle to keep it alive. I have messed with the DE tables to no avail. I could not find a DE table based on RPM..just map/delta map, NMPH, delta throttle, number of injects, and coolant DE. Yea..I found the TCC DE and TC OT DE..useless.
In open loop ..the car runs verry fine. WHen it hits close loop first..it works great...then I see the ECM lower the Short term counts sloowly. 128, then 127, 123..till it goes to the 80s . It pisses me off. O2 at fist few sec of close loop is at about .6. Then when the ECM does its thing..it bounces around .3 to .8 when doing its learn thing. You stab the peddal to 3k rpm and O2 goes from .8 to .4 and lower to .3, .2 and you see the BPW and DC just drop like a rock to .1 and lower stalling.
Im thinking..maybe its a fuel pressure problem? What do you think? What PSI does the fuel rail work with thise GTP injectors at idle and at WOT?
If all else fails..I will install a 3bar map sensor to see if it could offset the large injectors.
I got the corrections done for my Win Bin ECU file. IT TOOOK alot of homework from myself. I did some hit and miss and some studing from looking at the 58 code mask and looking at my 8F document.
First table... 0654 INJECTOR CONSTANT. Used on fueling on launch mode..
This constant at first looks like if you set the Decimal higher or HEX higher..the injector rate should too. NOPE. I found this out accidently and from frustration. Largest injectors in the CODE the 8F can support is about 44lbs hr.
To figure it out I knew 178=22lbs. Simple..do conversion math and find the factor...right....well almost. 291=36lbs..but why would the base pulse increase during crank and idle..but lean TOOO much part throttle?. OK..lest work backwords.. 178 is the Center..SO if I increase the injecotor 14lbs..then decrese the decimal to get the factor to show 14lbs less than 22..which is 8. Burn chip and plug in..BOOYA. WORKS. Starts out at .3-.4 and corrects better at .2 to .1. when in close loop. Still in need of fine tune.
My Notes: R=revers F=foward
???
65= 36R=8F
178=22
291=8R=36f
F--R---Decimal
0==44--1****
1==43--9
2==42--17
3==41--25
4==40--33
5==39--41
6==38--49
7==37--57
8==36--65
9==35--73
10=34--81
11=33--89
12=32--97
13=31--105
14=30--113
15=29--121
16=28--129
17=27--137
18=26--145
19=25--153
20=24--161
21=23--169
22=22--178
23=21--185
24=20--193
25=19--201
26=18--209
27=17
28=16
29=15
30=14
31=13
32=12
33=11
34=10
35=9
36=8---291
37=7
38=6
39=5
40=4
41=3
42=2
43=1
44=0--- ****
OK now for the Flow rate. 712 decimal=22lbs. OK or is it? I see Gal Hr on the Syty code. Why would you have two tables with the same purpuse? lbs hr..why not just one? OK this must be Gal hr..not lbs hr. Might not even make a difference if you scale it for ither. 22lbs hr (mass)= 231CC min (volume). This is all the same wheight in fuel. Not alcahol or watter. Gas has one mass and volume..so now I know it. OK now I need to find Gallons an Hour from CC min. 231 * 60 (for an hour)= 13860 CC. 13860 CC = 3.661425 gal hr. And to get 3.661425 from 712 decimal is devide 3.661425 from 712 which is 0.00514245...
I don't know if this table is backwords also..but it doen't seem to be. I didn't see a fuel sub rutien based on flow rate...only Inj Constant.
So for Injector constant I would have my table next to me. Even if It displays only decimal or is factored to display lbs hr. My chart corrects it.
On Injector flow rate...the Factor is .00514245.
Feel free to add this to your PAID definitions.. :lol: . I heard most all are still outdated with wrong factors or non. :wink: . And I better not see my work beeing sold as someone elses credit. Give credit where it's due. 8)
More of my code to crack. I will release my definition file latter on..if I decide. :?:
So bust out those 44lbs if you have them. :twisted:
BTW..this kind of stuff I will only post here. If someone else wants to see it..COM' GET IT. :lol:
Damn dude...looks like you are getting in deep! So what is your current setup? Turbo? Head or intake upgrade? Any components to fool the stock monitoring sensors?
I hope you are ready for me to pound you for information this spring!
I have gotten partial permission from the wifey to buy:
T3076 turbo
Gen III heads and intake (porting done by friend = free)
Build Getrag 282 or F40 6 speed
SPEC clutch and lightened flywheel
Injectors (poundage size to support above items)
Large FMIC and custom piping
smaller A/C condenser to allow for removal of stock intercooler and direct piping to new FMIC
Complete refurbish of suspension components
Also looking into a Coil On Plug (COP) setup that would work!
Coming soon to a TGP near me! :wink:
Pilot,
Ahhhh quality time together with the Top End Swap(s) :shock:
My current setup is not too wild. Its a reringed '94 3.1 shortblock with Chrome moly rings, Crane 260-2 cam, Ported heads ,ported manifolds, ported-n-patched :lol: x-over pipe, 87-88 Ford T-Bird Turbo IC (temperary), '00 Duramax IHI GM-8 turbo, 3in down pipe, Oversised Ebay BOV, 36lbs Injectors off GTP, Ported fuel rail, Rebuilt ''Race" 3t40 tranny with 3.33 gears and 2200+stall, TCC lock overide and some minor upgraded hardware, Battery located for more traction, self moded AUAF code. Just minor twiks. :roll: I've yet to prove the combo works (time slip). :?
Yours looks like a good combo. Should be good for 170hp Crank N/A. More with a cam. Then add spooli thing :twisted: .
I'd shy away from a light fly wheel on a heavy car. Launch would be a dog. This comes from Ford Taurus SHO guys. Then again..we have the torque to do it.
COPs..Well coil on plugs..that would be nice. I can only see a crank trigger and stand alone box doing it. Unless you plan on using the same ICM but wire the COPs to it and still retain waste spark. Kinda defeats the whole purpose ... :?: :lol: .
Just an update. I pulled out of the drive way last week and it was bucking and stalling like no tommorow. It would act like it was running out of gas. I took it to a paint shop and had it painted. When I got it back I had dataloged the car. It looks like one of the injectors is leaking. IDC at 600rpm is at .29 and shows rich condition. I rev it to2k rpm and seems to lean out coorrectly. But about a few sec in 2k to 4k rpm it starts getting rich. I pulled the plugs and they showed nothing normal except the two front ones. They were ashed black indicating a rich condition. Next day I pull them out they were wet with gas. I guess sometime when it was sitting the injectors got bad. THen again..when I got them off the GTP where were already off of the motor just hanging on the fuel rail exposed to the elements. I grabed 3 more GTP injectors and I'll see if I can reprogram the engien again. Right now it has the stock 22lbs and a Jeff M. top gun to just move it around.
Good work, please keep us informed on your progress.
Thanks. When the tranny comes out..the injectors will get changed. I've been wanting to tune also for E85 with gas mixture to see how it will act. The other one I wanto try is with -ather since it has a lower BTU but has more oxidants to burn fuel more thought.