I have been lookin into making a 3 bar bin for our TGPs.I have found that it will take alot of time and is going into uncharted territoty for me.I was hopeing some of you guys would be willing to help.I am willing to DONATE my time if you guys are.If we could pull it off we would have a FREE 3 bar bin.I talked on and off line with some guys from thirdgen.They said start here http:/thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245659&highlight=source+code+for+dummies If anybody wonts to help...Lets get started :) Later
Hey Adam can you post that link again?
i can't get it to work no how......eve if i cut and paste it.
thanks
Dave
www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245659&highlight=source+code+for+dummies
Excellent idea Adam. I don't think it will be to long before somebody needs it. ;) Won't be able to contribute as I know nothing about chip tuning. As soon as I learn how to program my house thermostat then maybe I could help out. :)
Jud
Count me in of course. ;D
I am jacked for time until the beginning of April, but I can help here and there along the way.
Let me know what you need me to do to get ready for it.
-Kenny 8)
Cool. Yet..I think it should only float around those capable of such boost and power and knowlege. I know some people would love to get thier hands on it from other boards without beeing given credit or profit.
Quote from: TurboGTU on March 13, 2006, 01:49:52 AM
Cool. Yet..I think it should only float around those capable of such boost and power and knowledge. I know some people would love to get their hands on it from other boards without being given credit or profit.
Being someone who has been around a lot on the Internet since 1995, and lucky enough to be on some great forums over that time (when they were great, read; why not, later) , and this is a very good point being made by TurboGTU! Not sure the best idea but I can suggest somethings, do a separate category locked to only those known and trusted. Yea that does sounds like overkill, and for sure a pain and why the hell do we need to, but I have seen too many people swoop in and steal other people's hard work, fact, word, whatever, its been proven and seen more times than I really want to tell you about, many of those guys were very good friends of mine. The diy-wb02 was one example, the flip-chip was another, there are too many to list and I am sure many I don't know of, but all I can say is the evolution of a thread like this has turned many a great web sites into a war zone, and sent many a top level contributors underground, never to be seen again (less you have their email and their respect!). So, though this is the worst-case scenario, it still has been proven in the past and with more and more people coming on the internet, can only be more of a risk of happening.
How about a level status to enter an area, like Moderator's Only have, but instead "Tuners" known to contribute in the past, and any that these people would risk their lives :laugh: vouching for to add to the list.
I don't know the best suggestion for this, I am hoping my ideas spring other ideas that might work out better ;)
How about an area called TGP.........(wtf is he talking about, oh Jeff, here he goes again lol)..."The Gentlemen Prerogative" ;)
Jeff M
I say give everyone the 3 bar patch...
At the very least we should see some cool carnage pics after the rookies try to run 30 PSI on a stock 3.1.... Would be somewhat entertainning, I would think. :icon_biggrin:
I guess I won't be "allowed" to have this patch, I don't even have one measely star under my name there. :laugh:
Seriously, that is a small chance with little gratification if someone out there blows up from an early version of the chip (what about the final versions!), even if we knew it happened, not like they are going to come back and tell us :icon_rolleyes: bout as gratifying as someone sending an email virus, how can they get satisfaction if they don't know anything about how someone's PC died and how pissed off the user was :icon_rolleyes:. And even if one of the early versions, or final versions is allowed to be snagged from here, who is to say the thief needs to prove it works to get money out of others they sell it to, not like they care what happens after they get their cash, once again, cash>someone making money off your hard earned efforts!
As I said, I am not new to this, I have seen the progression of such efforts, and the lack of concern at the onset, don't make me come back later and tell you I told you so :motz2:
Jeff M
Ok, different idea here :laugh:. Now, Jud has ran nearly a 12 second TGP, on only 7 psi I believe? Am I getting some attention :icon_lol: He would have ran in the 12s if he could get traction with his drag slicks, ummmm, you guys want to run more than double this boost level? AND, greatly reduce the resolution of a 1 bar chip, yes "1 bar", there were no extra table entries added to the fuel, timing and boost tables when it went to the 2 bar we have, so now we add in 3 bars into that resolution. And what about those wanting to rev past the rpm limits of our tables.
Just some food for thought, its not pressure that tells the story about hp, its mass air, and btw, is Jud still running a stock TGP intercooler?
Jeff M
I will be getting with a few of you via PM by the end of the day.
-Kenny :icon_cool:
Yes I half to agree with you guys(TurboGTU Jeff M)At first I thought we were the only guys messin with 8f but after some serious thought...SOMEBODY,SOMEWHERE,at SOMETIME will make SOME MONEY off our hard work :icon_mad: but I still wont to do it. :icon_idea: JEFF M if we were able to dissemble the 8f bin and change the 2bar math to 3bar and reassemble could we also extend the ve and spark tables to higher rpms and add extra fueling tables???If my UNDERSTANDING of source code is correct the possabilities are unlimited. ;)Right now I'm working with the 58 code.I plan to dissemble both the 58 2bar and 3bar to see what changes have been made and then try to reassemble the bins and test them on my buddy's f-body(yea he's got BALLS) I'll go from there. Later
Quote from: flybynite on March 14, 2006, 07:34:02 AM
Yes I half to agree with you guys(TurboGTU Jeff M)At first I thought we were the only guys messin with 8f but after some serious thought...SOMEBODY,SOMEWHERE,at SOMETIME will make SOME MONEY off our hard work :icon_mad: but I still wont to do it. :icon_idea: JEFF M if we were able to dissemble the 8f bin and change the 2bar math to 3bar and reassemble could we also extend the ve and spark tables to higher rpms and add extra fueling tables???If my UNDERSTANDING of source code is correct the possabilities are unlimited ;)Right now I'm working with the 58 code.I plan to dissemble both the 58 2bar and 3bar to see what changes have been made and then try to reassemble the bins and test them on my buddy's f-body(yea he's got BALLS) I'll go from there. Later
On a completely unrelated note. Your smileys weren't working in your post, so I fixed them. :icon_cool:
Quote from: Jeff M on March 14, 2006, 01:00:22 AM
Ok, different idea here :laugh:. Now, Jud has ran nearly a 12 second TGP, on only 7 psi I believe? Am I getting some attention :icon_lol: He would have ran in the 12s if he could get traction with his drag slicks, ummmm, you guys want to run more than double this boost level? AND, greatly reduce the resolution of a 1 bar chip, yes "1 bar", there were no extra table entries added to the fuel, timing and boost tables when it went to the 2 bar we have, so now we add in 3 bars into that resolution. And what about those wanting to rev past the rpm limits of our tables.
Just some food for thought, its not pressure that tells the story about hp, its mass air, and btw, is Jud still running a stock TGP intercooler?
Jeff M
I was running almost 10 psi at the spike then settled down to between 8-9 for the long haul. Hard to read when your paying attention to where your going. But Ill tell you guys, Jeff is right the PSI don't mean shit, Its the volume, # or cu ft that you can put through the motor and the more PSI you run the hotter the charge and the worse everything will be. Thats why I went from the GT 28 to the GT3070. I am a pro at melting pistons. :icon_cry:
I think an 8.60 1/8 mile = about a 13.30 something for the 1/4, at least that's what i was told by a couple of guys. I think that's what Jeff is referring to as almost 12's. Count in the altitude density at 1000' and it might be somewhere in the 13.2's. :dunno:
Yea Jeff still the stock IC with 2 1/2 piping. Looked at hundreds of IC and none are much bigger than what we have already. Afraid of overheating in the summer. Gets a little hot down here. ;) Also have considered a larger rad with a big IC. Don't know what I am going to do yet if anything.
Traction is the biggest loss. It gets pretty hairy midway through first and through second. On the last run I pointed it at the CL from the left lane and I think I stayed in the groove much better. Hence the 8.06 1/8 mile. These Nittos are just not cutting it. Infact there dangerous. Gotta find some wheels for the MT streets. No answers to my post on ID rim dimension or offset(backspacing) Guess I'll have to pull a wheel. Man there hard to get back on. Shit(thats my own icon)
I still think the 3 bar is a good endeavor. (Jeff you may be the first to need it with your project) I would like to see one available Just in case I would need it. I also think it will enhance the chip tuning capabilities of this community.
Jud
Quote from: flybynite on March 14, 2006, 07:34:02 AM
Yes I half to agree with you guys(TurboGTU Jeff M)At first I thought we were the only guys messin with 8f but after some serious thought...SOMEBODY,SOMEWHERE,at SOMETIME will make SOME MONEY off our hard work :icon_mad: but I still wont to do it. :icon_idea: JEFF M if we were able to dissemble the 8f bin and change the 2bar math to 3bar and reassemble could we also extend the ve and spark tables to higher rpms and add extra fueling tables???If my UNDERSTANDING of source code is correct the possabilities are unlimited. ;)Right now I'm working with the 58 code.I plan to dissemble both the 58 2bar and 3bar to see what changes have been made and then try to reassemble the bins and test them on my buddy's f-body(yea he's got BALLS) I'll go from there. Later
Have fun ;) Am sure it can be done, how long would it take/how long can others who "think" they need it can wait, what engine was it tested on such as this is a starter chip or a tuned 3-bar for your setup which only works if the "setups" are all the same (ie cam, heads, turbo, injectors, etc etc). And as I said, its not boost pressure that is the factor for performance and its really nice to have Jud as an example/proof, I have read about this and seen it and know others that speak it so so I don't see for myself that the 3 bar is for us or at least for most, or me, too much sacrifice, and that learned from the guys that started the 3 bar/SyTy tuner gurus who are nearly all underground now. I have to delegate my time to what matters to the masses, and then to little ole me :laugh:. But good luck, we all have different engine setups and respect that, can be the same for the ECM setup we choose to use :icon_mrgreen:
Jeff M
Hey, close enough to 12?s for me, aside from some issues that have nothing to do with the potential that I see is there, you got a 12 second TGP and the fastest in the lands :icon_mrgreen:, for now :icon_lol:, though that "for now" might last quite a while :icon_wink:.
Yep, it is about cfm or mass air that matters, we do have a ton of guys that have been on here/might still be(?) that know this as fact as well and could chime in. Boost pressure is a measurement of the pressure backing up in the intake, ie restriction there and after for air on its way to filling the engine?s cylinders. So some great work to the heads, intake and cam and now the air has less restriction and flows easier and you WILL make MORE power, AND at a LESSER PSI! That is good for many reasons, asking less of the turbo allowing it to do a better job, asking less of the intercooler allowing it to do a better job keeping things cool, and of course making more power while still keeping the boost down for pump friendly gas and well within a 2 bar setup! Keeping in that thought, if the engine does not flow its best and someone?s wants are looking for more hp, and a huge turbo is in their mindset, too large a turbo making up for a poor flowing engine will end in looking at a too-large of turbo with big lag and a lame power band. The best engine design books I have even show that once an engine is made to really flow on its own, that other bandage mods are no longer critical as before such as a turbo cam or higher stall converter. Of course those wanting to run super fast times will still use even larger turbos with higher stall converters but people need to be reasonable, is not the hp Jud has more than enough??? Put yourself in his seat, you got slicks and limited traction, and you want more hp?
If I find that I need more than a 2 bar setup to achieve no traction ever :lol: then its time for a real tuning tool, DFI, Fast or BigStuff3. The Meany Brothers and Lance Ward designed all of these and know enough shit to be able to blast me out of the water no matter how much I learn in my lifetime, these are setups that are priced damn good for what they can do AND!!!!....compared to all the time, tools and frustration it would take to make a 3 bar stock ECM setup, these are the better choices for engine management and really big hp, you got to balance the full values here, these stand-alones can kick our ass in power tuning where as you plug in their wideband (same one all the wide bands use today, LSU4.2), tell the computer you want to start with 11.2 at torque peak and 11.5 at hp peak and it will tune the damn fuel tables for you! The Bigstuff3 is now fully an owned by the Meany?s setup, with boost control, knock sensor, staged NOS, ton of shit, that is the way I would go if my TGP is lacking for its 2 bar limit, now for my Typhoon, my old DFI is for sale :icon_twisted:.
To help the traction issues, hey Jud, I really need to know, are both of your tires turning/burning the same amount/leaving the same patch on the pavement???? I ask since I know for a fact that after the differential gets some heavy wear it no longer puts the power to both the tires equally, had a local TGP owner who complained he was smoking all the way through 1st and well into 2nd gear :shock: and I only had him setup with a 100 octane chip and a stock engine/turbo etc, come to find he was only getting one tire power and that one tire was spinning/smoking all the way down the road, the other tire was not doing shit! He was slower than shit because of this. If anyone has seen the pic of the patch I left showing off this car?s power/our TGP, there are 2 nice even dark patches that the car left since the differential was in good shape on that TGP.
Next is squat, taking the weight off the front end/front drive tires, we get that and Jud if you don?t mind a stiff ass backend, I got some drag blocks that will keep your ass up and proud as you launch and go down the track with the weight kept on your front tires much better. I have had these for several years and they are top quality products. Had a 13.56 TGP owners test these at the track, only a little work to install and since you have no issues with engine/wrench work at all :icon_biggrin:, might be easy enough for you to take them out for daily/softer driving and then install them back in for drag runs :icon_twisted:. It?s like 4 nuts/bolts and in they go, and these are safe for our cars I will attest to that!
As for the intercooler, actually glad to hear its stock, that means yet another potential for extra power without doing-over the rest of your setup! The stock intercooler is better than most ?stock? setups, but when really pushed, will show its weakness. I have pressure and temperature taps before and after the intercooler and I have found (a solid 100 degree drop, sweeeeet) 2 psi of pressure drop when running 12 psi, so that means the turbo is putting out 14 psi at that point and should not have to if the intercooler did not suck down 2 psi for being there! Same as with those thinking 3 bar is the only way to go, lets first make what we have better or the best it can be. Now I know like you, an upgrade is going to be a task, I too have looked at it time and time again hoping I would see something that would make it not as hard to do, but other than some huge pipes running under the radiator support :icon_rolleyes:, no other easy way to run pipes to the front of the car, but??..(I got to quit giving my secrets away) if you look into the front of the fender on the driver?s side, in front of the vacuum reservoir ball there is quite a bit of room to relocate the battery to, maybe even a smaller/lighter D51R size Optima Yellow Top Sealed Battery (I have one sitting here :icon_wink:) that can be mounted in any position (i.e. no spillage issues). You can even relocate that vacuum ball somewhere else easy enough, it won?t care where you put it. Then there might be enough room with the battery gone to get some intercooler hoses through the front clip and for a front mount setup. There is also (so many more I cannot post, Kenny says no mini-novels) a much bigger/thicker intercooler core from Garrett that has the same length and width that with some new cast ends could be made to fit in the stock location! And yet more?..if the battery is relocated like I said and for some reason the intercooler pipes cannot make use of the extra area for a front mount and/or the larger stock replacement Garrett I mentioned is used, this old battery location will for sure be the best/perfect cold air setup that can be made, and very easily made!!
Ok, no more.
Jeff M
:icon_wink: ok so this thread kinda answered my question if you did a disassemble / assemble of the $8f bin. Was looking for someone actually working with the code it self. Looked at different places and at ftp.diy-efi.org there was a some what commented $8f code but no "owner" or comments who had done the work. It also looked like the code it self wasn't working (beside some of the code wasn't extraced sine some of the jumps was out of the address space if I don't remember incorrectly.
Anyways, some working be it std or modified code that is actually somewhat commented would be a more than great. I'm not new to programming (both assembler and C) so I hope I could contrib a bit.....
Cheers Gimper
Without going into major hex..I would try the Sy/ty 3bar code on the ECM.
I had a somewhat diss. of the code itself, but not too much into what each part does in the code or how it translates.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/244781-3-bar-patch-58-a.html
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/245659-source-code-dummies-ask.html