I've been battling the horrible performance my TGP has had and I think I've narrowed it down to clogged or bad injectors. But today (after letting the car sit for four days) it just cranky cranky and no start. I have spark and the fuel pump is good so I have eliminated the obvious. I'm just wondering if the injectors can cause the no start thing now??? I have changed the O2 and the MAP and it already has Jeff's chip and x-over as well and two weeks ago I gave it a complete tune up so any ideas????
A couple of questions...and you may want to be a little more specific when you post issues. ;)
How do you know you have spark? How did you check it?
How do you know the fuel pump is good? Did you test fuel pressure at the schrader valve on the fuel rail?
Also have you ohm'd out the injectors to see if they have shorted?
Let us know... :icon_cool:
sounds like a possible bad crank posistion sensor.
That is why I asked...how did he check for spark. Wouldn't a bad crank sensor still allow spark...just very irratic? That would also explain the bad running and chugging idle.
But we need to know more before we can internet diagnose! ;) :icon_cool:
Right on...MAYBE I left a few details out :icon_eek: I had the car to a CERY good friend of mine who is also a mechanic...albeit he has never worked on one of these...BUT he did check all of the above with the exception of the crank, injectors and TPS as he does not have the correct codes for them and he did tell me he didnt want to "guess" which is one reason why I trust him.
As far as ohm testing the injectors I though the best way was to test each one for proper pressure by pulling them and testing. I'm not sure how to ohm test them as I thought outside circumstances COULD drive the outcome of that test??? I'm not saying that I know I'm just asking as I do not know (which is why I'm asking you guys :icon_mrgreen:)
I dont mean to leave anything out but just asking so I can learn!
The injectors can be tested without removing them.
Take off plenum and unplug injector connecters.
And ohm test the injectors that way? What should the readings be for these?
Aged...but Good injectors will be between 12.0 - 12.4
Anything UNDER 12.0 will begin to be suspect of deterioration of the windings.
If you are 11.0-11.5 and under they MUST be replaced!
When you pull the EGR tube, Throttle Body, upper plenum (BE VERY CAREFUL OF PCV VALVE HOSE) and unplug the injector connectors you will see two spade connectors...just use a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to read them.
A FRIENDLY REMEMBER... you are working on a 16 year old car...the plastic vacuum lines are EXTREMELY BRITTLE as well as the PCV hose. If you watch what you are doing and stop when you feel resistance on something you are taking off you should be ok when things go back together. ;) :icon_cool:
UPDATE - I pulled the plenum and paused at resistance like you suggested. The PCV hose was in three pieces and the PCV itself was so full of black goo it could hardly move. I replaced both and ohm tested the injectors. The very first one on the forward most fuel rail and closest to the fuel feeder on the right side read 9.5 :icon_eek: I checked all the rest and they all ranged from 12.2 to 12.4.
So now I have to find an injector that matches or I can replace them all with 19# that I do have. But the problem still remains that the car will crank but it will not start. Is it possible that this one injector is the cause?
One injector will not cause a no start...it will run roughl...but not a no start. 9.5ohms is dead and will need to be replaced. DO NOT USE A 19# injector...especially mixed with the stock injectors. All you will do is melt that piston if you get in the throttle. I would think it would run rough anyway.
Jeff M has some stock injectors that he may sell individually, but for the price of two you can nearly buy a full set of 3800 (L36) injectors. With the 3800 injectors you most likely would need to tweak the chip slightly to keep it from running rich...but 6 brand new injectors always sound good to me. Have a look here for what we were talking about... http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=2954.0
Have you tested the fuel pressure at the schrader valve on the fuel rail? If so what was your pressure? Static and during cranking?
Also I didn't see "how" you tested for spark. Need to know that to see if maybe your crank sensor is dead or dying.
Let us know...Kenny :icon_cool:
my 2 cent post: Taylor 8mm. 74030. goodbye now.
Lets say the car has spark because the machines said so ;) Would the CPS cause it NOT to start but just crack like hell and sputter once in a while?????
Quote from: GangstGP on March 23, 2006, 02:42:40 PM
my 2 cent post: Taylor 8mm. 74030. goodbye now.
And that would be plug wires?
Yes the CPS can cause that if its messed up and yes those are plug wires he mentioned
Well that just sucks :icon_mad: The CPS can go from good to bad just like that? I just replaced the plugs and the wires last week so I'm leaning on the CPS just went bye bye. The car started (not easily but it did eventually start) last Thursday and when I went to get in after the weekend it would just crank and crank so I'm going to go get a new CPS and try that.
ya with age they can become faulty
when ya change it be careful not to break it off in the hole.....a common problem if ya force it to much on removal of the old one.
Got it...and thanks for the advice!
If you want good advise then give us the fuel pressure you tested at.
The fuel pressure was 47 psi at the valve.
I dont mean to sound retarded but where in the hell is crank position sensor located at??? I cant find it on this POS.
crawl under from the front of the car and on the back of the engine, about straight down from the 2nd spark plug in the back. I basiclly just had to feel around till i got it. It has one bolt if i remember correctly and the plastic on the back is kind of oblong or oval shape with one side a little smaller than the other.
OK...changed the CPS and still a no go. Now I'm not even getting a spuddering from it. It still cranks but it still wont start :icon_sad:
Are we at plan G or H???
Damn........
Coils or Ignition Control Module?
running out of ideas here
Quote from: tcristea on March 21, 2006, 06:13:01 AM
I've been battling the horrible performance my TGP has had and I think I've narrowed it down to clogged or bad injectors. But today (after letting the car sit for four days) it just cranky cranky and no start. I have spark and the fuel pump is good so I have eliminated the obvious. I'm just wondering if the injectors can cause the no start thing now??? I have changed the O2 and the MAP and it already has Jeff's chip and x-over as well and two weeks ago I gave it a complete tune up so any ideas????
cat clogged?
You arent allowed to run out of ideas yet... ;)
The coils are new as of a week ago and the cat I had tested earlier this week and it's good. I havent checked the IC yet so I'll do that this afternoon but I still dont know why it started and all of a sudden nothing at all.
are you 100% sure the plug wires are routed correctly? front bank is 2-4-6, rear bank is 1-3-5 (from passenger side to driver's side). some people get it backwards because of the way the numbers are cast into the lower intake manifold.
otherwise...it might be a long shot but have you checked the timing chain? i have had one break....pull the oil fill cap and look down and make sure the valvetrain is moving while someone else cranks it over. hopefully it's not that because if it was you'd likely have some bent valves.
good luck!
Quote from: TurboSedan on March 24, 2006, 10:53:16 AM
are you 100% sure the plug wires are routed correctly? front bank is 2-4-6, rear bank is 1-3-5 (from passenger side to driver's side). some people get it backwards because of the way the numbers are cast into the lower intake manifold.
otherwise...it might be a long shot but have you checked the timing chain? i have had one break....pull the oil fill cap and look down and make sure the valvetrain is moving while someone else cranks it over. hopefully it's not that because if it was you'd likely have some bent valves.
good luck!
Double checked just to be sure like you said and they are correctly routed. Also I checked the timing and its true on and good to go as well.
I did notice a strong smell of gas when I was trying to start it up tonight and found that it's leaking gas between the FPR and the fuel rail. Further investigation showed two o-rings with tiny tears in them so I'll be changing those in the morning as no place is open here in KC, MO this time of night to get good o-rings. I'm hoping it was just not getting enough gas because of the rather HUGE leak there and that's why it wont even sputter after changing the CPS?? That would also explain the gas smell after driving it when it did start last week.
I'll keep ya posted and keep the ideas coming. I've been working on this so long I'm starting to see it in my sleep :icon_eek:
Have you pulled the plugs to see if they are soaked with gas??
You may have a FPR that is bad and FLOODING the engine!
That is the only problem with these cars..to many components to fail! ;) :icon_cool:
Best part is when you replace most of the sensors you will have a near perfect running motor and be able to enjoy it to it's fullest! :icon_cool:
I've had it for the night (my hands hurt so bad I can hardly scratch my nuts :laugh: ) but I will surely look there in the morning after I get a new FPR as I just dont feel like changing an o-ring and not the whole component (just doesnt seem quite right for some reason).
As for replacing all the sensors I didnt really think about it until you just that :icon_eek: I think when it's all said and done I will almost replaced every sensor in the engine! The only thing left to do is change the LCD in the HUD that has burned causing it not to work and cleaning the engine up making it all pretty and shiney and what-not.
Hell I might be affraid to drive it after all this :icon_mrgreen: . NOT!!!!!!!!
r ya sure its not just the slider switch? the one on mine appeared to be fine but thats all it was. for the HUD. thats funny the FPR has issues, thats about the only thing I haven't replaced, got new injecters countless fuel pumps. Its good to replace all the sensors, as they can live a hard life if the charging system hasnt been properly maintained. I believe they would last way longer given clean power, we already have the technology to control giant temperature swings in the engine bay, and advancements in wire connections like adhesive heat shrink added to oxygen free cables help keep out contaminents like never before.
Update --- It finally is a go! :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
After changing EVERYTHING on the engine and checking the plugs and on and on and on I decided to change the coils. Got the third one installed, drank another beer and said what the hell. Got in and turned the key and BAM! LIFE!!! Sputtered from all the gas and cleaners I loaded it with, smoked for about a minute and then just smoothed right out. She's purring like a fat cat on catnip!
I think in the process of changing all the sensors and injectors and everything else I must have killed the last coil or something.
Thanks for all the help and advise! I have learned an awful lot about this engine and cant wait to tweak it up!
Well thanks for letting us know the outcome. This was one of the reasons a couple of us asked if you had spark and how you tested for spark. Easiest way on theses beautiful beasts (or any other car for that matter ;)) is to put a timing light on each plug wire and test for fire.
Glad to hear she is purrrrrrrrring! Stick around man. Too many disappear when their car finally fires! :icon_razz:
Quote from: TGPilot on March 26, 2006, 06:06:28 PM
Well thanks for letting us know the outcome. This was one of the reasons a couple of us asked if you had spark and how you tested for spark. Easiest way on theses beautiful beasts (or any other car for that matter ;)) is to put a timing light on each plug wire and test for fire.
Glad to hear she is purrrrrrrrring! Stick around man. Too many disappear when their car finally fires! :icon_razz:
I had changed the coils just a week ago so I wasn't even thinking that AND since my frustration level was maxed I didn't even consider the fact that they could be bad... :icon_redface:
As for sticking around I have learned an awful lot in the past few weeks ALL because of you guys and I still have way too much to learn to bolt now! Besides, now the fun part begins with tuning and mod'n and I will definately need support :icon_biggrin: ;)
Right on man! That is what we are here for. ;) :laugh: :icon_cool: