Well I woke the TGP up on Sunday for this year, and the last couple times I have started it, it has been smoking.... A LOT- like worse than a diesel bad...
TODAY- I brought the TGP into the shop and had a coolant flush done on it- it had to sit at idle for 15 minutes and it was smoking so bad the mechanics had to open all the doors and one said the smoke was making his eyes water :laugh:
So....I'm getting raw fuel coming out the exhaust....I think....
It does the smoking if I coast for awhile- ie. coasting to a stoplight for 100 feet or so, or just sitting for awhile will make it smoke also. When I'm sitting at a stoplight, the idle will sit at about 1,000 RPM (according to the tach in the car) for about 10 seconds, then it starts to stumble, the stumble gets worse and worse as the idle surges, until it goes down so far it just dies. It starts up right away after it dies... The smoke goes away if I give it a lot of throttle. Like I said, it has a bit of a stumble at idle, and if I hold it at a decent rpm, about 2,500 RPM, it has a bad stumble. My oil return line was replaced last fall. I had my turbo off the car last week and cleaned everything up, its looking good, I'm not burning oil, as the smoke is NOT blue, it is a white/very light blue smoke.
So what am I dealing with here? Bad, leaky injectors?
Also, between last fall and this year, the best I've pulled off is 19 MPG driving granny style... :laugh: thats at 55 mph, accelerating slowly, and doing a lot of coasting. I don't drive that way now, but yea that is the BEST I've been able to pull off. BAD MILEAGE
pull the rail and then check the injectors for leak down when they are pressurized and the key is off, or ohm they out with a multimeter, I don't recall the specs exactly but they should not be belows 12 ohms I think..??
someone can confirm this im sure. They may be nearing the end of their useful life.
Mine has been doing this alot lately, me and TGPvsTII been trying to figure this out, were thinkin possible fuel problem either Injectors, regulator, purge canister,purge solenoid even fuel rail blockage so were narrowing this problem quickly. So if possibly you figure this out before me let me know please. Coarse what would really be nice if someone came foward now so I don't have to spend so much money
WAKE UP TGPers AND HELP US OUT :icon_cool:
I'm going to call Injectors, sounds like leaky ones.
Take your plenum off and ohm them out with a multimeter, anything below 12 = Junk, at 12 = Barely Ok
If Any are below 12 do yourself a favor and get a set from a 3800 Non-Supercharged Vin K from a second gen Grand Prix GT or something. AC Delco Part Number is 217-318.
To see if they are leaking next time, before you start the car hit the fuel scrader valve, if everything is good it should still have pressure, if not it could be leaky injectors or a bad regulator.
I seem to remember reading that you could test a fuel regulator by applying vacuum and if it holds it, its good. But I don't know if thats true or not.
To Check Purge Soleniod, I believe you can just unplug it, it doesn't serve any purpose any than fuel economy.
Nick, it doesn't sound like a fuel pump, usually they just don't work one day, but I could be wrong, when is the last time the fuel filter has been changed?
That should give you some things to test :icon_lol:
Hope that Helps,
Mitch
Nick, do you have access to a fuel pressure gauge? If so, attach it to the fuel rail and turn the key on so that the fuel pump primes. Turn the key off and take note of the fuel pressure reading and see if it's dropping. The general rule of thumb is that the pressure should not drop off more than 5psi in a 10 minute time period. If it does, than you have a leak somewhere(injectors, FPR, or the check valve in the fuel pump are possible le...judging by your symptoms, it's most likely your injectors) Also, you can pull the vacuum line from your fuel pressure regulator and check it for fuel...the best way is to get a spare length of line and do the "suck" test on it, if fuel is in the line, the FPR diaphram is torn and leaking.
If you do not have a gauge, turn the key and let the fuel pump prime. Then let the car sit a few hours and try to start it. Does it start immediately or do you have to let it crank over for an extended amount of time? Back when my injectors were leaking last year, it took a while for my car to start and then I would have gasoline smoke out the exhaust(it would burn your eyes it was so strong) that was light bluish/whitish in color. If the injectors are leaking, your spark plugs on corresponding cylinders will be wet and/or smell very strongly of gasoline...so you can also pull them and check.
PS: Putting the gas pedal to the floor while cranking shuts off the injectors and will crank the car immediately if they are in fact leaking(let off the pedal as soon as it fires). You can try this after letting the pump build pressure and then letting the car sit a while.
Ok guys, AS FAR AS I KNOW- I will tell ya everything I know about the car. Since I've had it (bought it July 31st last year) I have NOT replaced any of the injectors or the fuel filter. As far as I know, it still has the original injectors, fuel pump, and fuel filter in it. I bought a new fuel filter to put in it(AC Delco), and I will be putting that in very soon. I've been around here long enough to think that the injectors were going, just wanted to confirm my suspicion. I want to buy new injectors- they are the Ford Yellow Top 19 lbs., correct? Those are the ones I want to buy if I can get em.
Today the TGP got TERRIBLE mileage- I drove it to school, back home, to the shop (changed the oil), and back home- a total drive of about 25 miles; I started the day with 3/4 of a tank, and now it has just above 1/2 tank.... IT USED 3 GALLONS GOING 25 MILES!!!!!!!! Thats a little over 8MPG!!! Smoked terribly today and it died at every light I stopped at. Injectors and filter are getting replaced ASAP!!! Is there anything else I should be replacing?
Thanks for the help guys! ;)
Nick
whens the last time you replaced the O2 sensor??
crossover pipe? Wow thats a major failure of injectors if thats the problem
I replaced the crossover last weekend....
did you do the O2 sensor with it?
Quote from: R Dubya on April 19, 2007, 06:59:38 AM
did you do the O2 sensor with it?
Nope, the O2 sensor was still good, I'm gonna leave it until I chip it.
Today, it only smoked a little bit on occasion, but I still used 2 gallons driving 20 miles... I will be replacing the injectors with Ford Yellow tops and changing the fuel filter out soon... is there anything else I should change to get rid of the smoking?
thats why I'm asking about the O2 sensor, if its failing the computer may not always throw the code, I'm wondering if you have a spare to throw in and see if it makes a difference.
I'm not getting any codes, and the O2 sensor APPEARS to be okay- it isn't carbon fouled or anything, it is fairly clean. I do not have a spare O2 sensor. I really don't think the o2 sensor could be causing the smoking, could it? To me, it seems more like bad injectors- it smokes, stumbles bad, and stalls if I'm sitting for over 20-30 seconds at a stoplight. Crossover has been replaced.
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 19, 2007, 08:07:45 PM
I'm not getting any codes, and the O2 sensor APPEARS to be okay- it isn't carbon fouled or anything, it is fairly clean. I do not have a spare O2 sensor. I really don't think the o2 sensor could be causing the smoking, could it? To me, it seems more like bad injectors- it smokes, stumbles bad, and stalls if I'm sitting for over 20-30 seconds at a stoplight. Crossover has been replaced.
An O2 could be part of the problem, and chances are it is fouled out now, take some carb cleaner and spray your O2 sensor then put it back in, that may help clean it off since you don't have another.
but the computer completly ignores the o2 sesnor till its warmed up tho....
Nick, just throwing this out there...but my car was doing the same smoking thing. White/very light blueish smoke...and we figured out it was the turbo. Keep in mind, my turbo had been rebuilt TWICE now before I bought it, so a rebuild is never a guarentee that it won't go bad again. I hope not man, but maybe that's the culprit?
The smoke was due to the oil being thrown into the downpipe and burnt off from there, so I'm not sure if that's why it was so much whiter than blueish.
The thing is, you can smell RAW gas coming out the tailpipes- so much that it makes your eyes water... its not burning oil, and the turbo has about 2,000 miles on it. I'm still thinkin leaky/stuck fuel injectors.
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 20, 2007, 01:13:38 PM
The thing is, you can smell RAW gas coming out the tailpipes- so much that it makes your eyes water... its not burning oil, and the turbo has about 2,000 miles on it. I'm still thinkin leaky/stuck fuel injectors.
Check the things I told you to check and you can confirm that they're leaking. ;)
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 17, 2007, 10:53:57 PM
Nick, do you have access to a fuel pressure gauge? If so, attach it to the fuel rail and turn the key on so that the fuel pump primes. Turn the key off and take note of the fuel pressure reading and see if it's dropping. The general rule of thumb is that the pressure should not drop off more than 5psi in a 10 minute time period. If it does, than you have a leak somewhere(injectors, FPR, or the check valve in the fuel pump are possible le...judging by your symptoms, it's most likely your injectors) Also, you can pull the vacuum line from your fuel pressure regulator and check it for fuel...the best way is to get a spare length of line and do the "suck" test on it, if fuel is in the line, the FPR diaphram is torn and leaking.
If you do not have a gauge, turn the key and let the fuel pump prime. Then let the car sit a few hours and try to start it. Does it start immediately or do you have to let it crank over for an extended amount of time? Back when my injectors were leaking last year, it took a while for my car to start and then I would have gasoline smoke out the exhaust(it would burn your eyes it was so strong) that was light bluish/whitish in color. If the injectors are leaking, your spark plugs on corresponding cylinders will be wet and/or smell very strongly of gasoline...so you can also pull them and check.
PS: Putting the gas pedal to the floor while cranking shuts off the injectors and will crank the car immediately if they are in fact leaking(let off the pedal as soon as it fires). You can try this after letting the pump build pressure and then letting the car sit a while.
Matt- I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, but I will try some of the things you suggested very soon.
Thanks everyone ;)
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 20, 2007, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 17, 2007, 10:53:57 PM
Nick, do you have access to a fuel pressure gauge? If so, attach it to the fuel rail and turn the key on so that the fuel pump primes. Turn the key off and take note of the fuel pressure reading and see if it's dropping. The general rule of thumb is that the pressure should not drop off more than 5psi in a 10 minute time period. If it does, than you have a leak somewhere(injectors, FPR, or the check valve in the fuel pump are possible le...judging by your symptoms, it's most likely your injectors) Also, you can pull the vacuum line from your fuel pressure regulator and check it for fuel...the best way is to get a spare length of line and do the "suck" test on it, if fuel is in the line, the FPR diaphram is torn and leaking.
If you do not have a gauge, turn the key and let the fuel pump prime. Then let the car sit a few hours and try to start it. Does it start immediately or do you have to let it crank over for an extended amount of time? Back when my injectors were leaking last year, it took a while for my car to start and then I would have gasoline smoke out the exhaust(it would burn your eyes it was so strong) that was light bluish/whitish in color. If the injectors are leaking, your spark plugs on corresponding cylinders will be wet and/or smell very strongly of gasoline...so you can also pull them and check.
PS: Putting the gas pedal to the floor while cranking shuts off the injectors and will crank the car immediately if they are in fact leaking(let off the pedal as soon as it fires). You can try this after letting the pump build pressure and then letting the car sit a while.
Matt- I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, but I will try some of the things you suggested very soon.
Thanks everyone ;)
I am definetly betting leaky injectors at this point, check for fuel leak down like he said at the schrader valve
I'll be checking it out tomorrow.
I'm going to guess it is the FPR..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Forsale/Forsale0307017.jpg)
The diaphragm (sp?) probably bursted.
Well I tried doing some testing, and I have found that sometimes it starts easy, sometimes it starts hard. When it starts hard, it lets out a bunch of white/very light blue smoke, and it smells strongly of gas. I am checking my plugs as we speak to see if they are wet.... be back in a little bit...
I just checked the plugs, this is how they went.
Going from RIGHT TO LEFT; that is DRIVER'S SIDE TO PASSENGER SIDE, front bank of cylinders:
drivers side plug: white
center plug: white
passenger side plug: dark brown and smelled of strong gas.
So... I'm running LEAN on two of the front cylinders, and rich on the passenger side cylinder....
I really don't feel like tilting the engine to check the rear bank right now :laugh: . Does that help any?
Thanks guys
IMO I would say you have at the least leaky and perhaps filthy or failing injectors on the white plugged cylinders, I think white means hot/lean :icon_cool:
You definetely have a leakdown problem though. Definetely change the plugs too, but I am about 99% positive you need to replace those injectors.
Hey Nick! There's an easy way to doing the rear plugs....just remove the alternator...frees up a ton of room!
I just bought the injectors... just waiting for them to arrive... when I have the money, I will be doing a COMPLETE tuneup to this car- all sensors, plugs, wires, etc.
Injectors are #1 right now though.... we'll see how it goes!
Quote from: grinders_18 on April 23, 2007, 09:11:29 PM
Hey Nick! There's an easy way to doing the rear plugs....just remove the alternator...frees up a ton of room!
To be more specific, remove the alternator with it's bracket attached to it(~three 15mm bolts, a 10mm bolt that secures the little metal brace on the intake side of the alt, then remove the electrical connections. Don't forget to disconnect the battery before alt removal. ;) )
Oh I know how to do it. ;) I just don't wanna bother to take it apart until I have new plugs and wires to put in.
Good to hear, now you will know what a smooth idle is like, and better acceleration too! Oh yeah, prepare for close to 32mpg as well, given you keep your foot off the floor.
Awesome- right now with bad injectors, I'm getting about 10 MPG! :icon_redface:
Yeah I hated getting bad gas mileage...my girlfriend's mom doesn't believe I'm getting over 30 MPG highway lol...but she drives a Jeep, what do you expect? :icon_biggrin:
Today I put in my new five-o motorsport C302 injectors. WOW what a HUGE difference they make!! The car has twice as much power everywhere, it IDLES :icon_eek: , it doesn't die anymore or idle hunt, it shifts ULTRA smooth, even though my lower motor mount is blown... I can barely feel it shift now!
It doesn't smoke anymore either! Finally my smoking problem is solved! The car literally drives like it is brand new now!
I also replaced the PCV valve, cleaned my throttle body, and cleaned my intake manifolds inside and out while it was all apart. Runs WONDERFUL now! :icon_twisted:
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
[/b]
Could you please link me to these injectors?
http://fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsFORD.asp#foted5b
there ya go!
Change your oil(if you haven't already) Nick. ;) I think everyone on this board is going to end up with a set of Ford injectors in their cars eventually. :laugh:
Quote from: mfewtrail on May 12, 2007, 11:39:36 PM
Change your oil(if you haven't already) Nick. ;) I think everyone on this board is going to end up with a set of Ford injectors in their cars eventually. :laugh:
I changed it at the beginning of April... should I change it again now? I've put less than 500 miles on it since it was last changed...
Quote from: TGP Nick on May 13, 2007, 08:30:05 PM
Quote from: mfewtrail on May 12, 2007, 11:39:36 PM
Change your oil(if you haven't already) Nick. ;) I think everyone on this board is going to end up with a set of Ford injectors in their cars eventually. :laugh:
I changed it at the beginning of April... should I change it again now? I've put less than 500 miles on it since it was last changed...
If your injectors were leaking badly, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change it soon. Check the oil level and smell the oil to see if it smells strongly of gasoline.
so these ones ?
Ford Racing C302
19-lbs./hr
6/Set: $249
(http://fiveomotorsport.com/PartsJPEGs/Injectors/FordRacingC302.jpg)
Yep thats them.