So I went ahead and installed my brand new Five 0 Motorsports Yellow top injectors that are rated at 19lbs on Ford fuel pressure. I purchased these ones upon recommendation from TGP Nick.
Ford Racing C302
19-lbs./hr
6/Set: $249
(http://fiveomotorsport.com/PartsJPEGs/Injectors/FordRacingC302.jpg)
Now, once the car has been sitting for more than an hour or so, the car will not fire up by just turning the key, it will just crank and sputter a bit. This started happening immediately after the injector install.
If I cycle the fuel pump a few times by turning the key on and off, or if I hold the gas down while cranking, it seems to start up a *bit* easier.
Once it's running, it runs fine, and will restart fine if it hasn't been sitting for too long.
I replaced the o-ring on the ends of the the 2 hard lines going into the fuel rail, and replaced the throttle body gasket when I did the install. The injectors came with o-rings pre-assembled. I coated all o-rings with a little bit of clean motor oil before assembly.
I put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail, and it showed around 40 psi after the pump had been cycled once. Could it still show 40 psi, with air in the line?
My thoughts are:
A: Maybe the o-rings on the new injectors aren't as thick as the OEM injector o-rings, allowing air to displace the fuel in the lines over time.
B: One of the brand new injectors is leaking, allowing air into the system.
C: The injectors are somehow not compatible with the car????
D: Possible unrelated FPR issue?
I'm sort of stumped on this one, I've purchased a set of injector o-rings from GM, I'm going to swap them out and see if it makes a difference. I'm also going to pressurize the fuel rail with the injectors out of the Intake Manifold, to see if any of them are leaking.
Any Suggestions? Please.
I'm sort of just blindly guessing here.
Thanks.
Matt- as you know, I have the same exact injectors in my TGP, they have been in there for about 3 weeks now.... my TGP is running fine, but after it has been running for a while, when I open my hood I can smell RAW gas... it smells like it is coming from the area around the fuel rail... also, when I turn on my heater/ air controls when it has been running for a while (especially at stoplights) I can smell raw fuel vapor coming through my vents..... possible that we have different problems caused by the same thing??
Well, who ever figures it out first will have to definately share their solution. I'm going to start with replacing the O-rings with GM ones, and I'll measure them to confirm that there's a difference, if there is one.
I don't smell raw gas, but then again I havent been sniffing around real close, and my allergies are inhibiting my sense of smell. lol
Any other ideas anyone?, The more opinions the better.
Other than the "gas smell" issue, mine is running stronger and faster than ever with no problems. Starts perfect and idles perfectly every time, hot or cold.
huh......weird
other ideas?
Matt- I have NOT replaced the o-rings on the ends of the the 2 hard lines going into the fuel rail though- I'm gonna try that first tomorrow and see if that fixes it (the gas fumes problem).
Bump... any ideas?
Matt and Nick. I've had my injectors, the same Yellow Top C302's, for over 4 months and not had any problems with them. I still get a gas smell, seldomly. If you can't figure it out, go buy some new O rings?
well raw fuel smell indicates that there is some sort of vapor leak in that system, and I would extremely apprehensive about driving it until you know where it is coming from, and you know that it's stopped. Last thing anyone wants is an underhood fire. Not good.
Are you sure you seated the injectors correctly? On my pink top injectors there were two grooves for mounting them to the rail, I used the lower one I think just to make sure it was a tighter fit. Might want to check that asap.
As far as the starting issues, does it smoke like crazy after the hard start condition? I would bet that there is something wrong with at least 1 of those injectors. Ohm them and see what you get, or get a datalog and see if someone here can help you figure it out that way.
It doesn't seem to smoke so much once it starts, but it does run rough for a little bit. I definately plan on ohming the injectors when I get to pulling it apart next week.
I suck at figuring out how to datalog, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to pick out the bad one with the multimeter if one is bad.
Hopefully five O motorsports are decent to deal with if I have to exchange an injector out.
Thanks for all the ideas, keep them coming, and I'll post with an update when I get it apart.
Well I checked and tightened my fuel lines coming in and out of the fuel rail, they didn't seem to be wet with fuel, but that seemed to be where the smell was coming from.
HOWEVER, I did notice that when I started the car and pushed the schrader valve on the fuel rail, fuel shot out, but when I pushed the valve with the engine off, NO FUEL CAME OUT!! It worked totally fine for the last few weeks, as in it would shoot fuel everywhere when you pressed the valve with the engine off, now it won't let out any fuel when I press it with the engine off. It also hasn't smelled like gas AT ALL for the last 3 weeks... only this week is when it started doing this... What could be going on here??
Holy shit! I just found a massive fuel leak.... turns out I was looking in the wrong spot! It wasn't at the upper end of the fuel lines that connect to the fuel rail, but the lower part of the fuel line that connects to the metal fuel lines to the tank.... this connection is below the cruise control... gas is POURING out of there and leaving huge gas puddles everywhere! Well there's my problem!!!
Quote from: R Dubya on June 02, 2007, 12:14:09 PM
Are you sure you seated the injectors correctly? On my pink top injectors there were two grooves for mounting them to the rail, I used the lower one I think just to make sure it was a tighter fit. Might want to check that asap.
Ryan, did you bolt down the fuel rail properly or leave it unbolted? When I installed my injectors w/ the clips on the lower grooves, they didn't appear long enough to seat into the intake manifold properly. I used the top slots and they worked out perfectly. They've been in the car since November '06. I have zero starting issues, no fuel smell, no fuel leaks, etc.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y33/mfewtrail/myt.jpg
^see how the o-ring to o-ring length is almost identical when lining the top notch on the Ford injector up with the stock ones? ;)
If you get this hard start figured out, let me know. My TGP has been doing this all week long. Never dont it befor. I am NOT running the yellow tops, but the L36 Injectors. My car takes 2 to 3 trys to get it started. First crank, spit spit, stumble, die. Second crank, either it does the same thing, or starts up and runs perfect.
No raw fuel smell, no leaking fuel anywhere that I can find. Getting pretty good fuel milage actually, drove 340 miles on one tank this week. I still hate using this car as my daily driver...
Quote from: 93luminaz34 on June 02, 2007, 02:05:50 PM
It doesn't seem to smoke so much once it starts, but it does run rough for a little bit. I definately plan on ohming the injectors when I get to pulling it apart next week.
Matt, you don't have to take it apart to ohm the injectors. You can ohm each bank (three injectors) by ohming the two little connectors for the injectors just below the computer. It should be 3 times the ohm's for one injector.
Jud
you got 340 miles ona tank! LUCKY! I can barley get 210 miles on a tank.
I just took my fuel lines off, cleaned them up, PTFE taped all threads and replaced all of the o-rings, put it all back together good and tight. No more fuel leaks and the gas smell is gone! Problem solved!
Quote from: Prospeeder on June 03, 2007, 01:53:26 PM
you got 340 miles ona tank! LUCKY! I can barley get 210 miles on a tank.
Thats what I normally get.That tank I did all highway driving. saw as high as 28.2 mpg on the DIC when we first started the tank, lowest was 21.2
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 03, 2007, 02:39:47 PM
I just took my fuel lines off, cleaned them up, PTFE taped all threads and replaced all of the o-rings, put it all back together good and tight. No more fuel leaks and the gas smell is gone! Problem solved!
I'll have to check those lower connections as well.
Quote from: sleeperred90tgp on June 03, 2007, 06:38:22 AM
Quote from: 93luminaz34 on June 02, 2007, 02:05:50 PM
It doesn't seem to smoke so much once it starts, but it does run rough for a little bit. I definately plan on ohming the injectors when I get to pulling it apart next week.
Matt, you don't have to take it apart to ohm the injectors. You can ohm each bank (three injectors) by ohming the two little connectors for the injectors just below the computer. It should be 3 times the ohm's for one injector.
Jud
Yes, I've read that in one of your other threads, but it only takes like an hour or 2 to pull everything apart and get an accurate reading for every injector.
I want to take some measurements and do some comparisons of the injectors anyways, so I have to pull it apart.
Quote from: pontiac6ksteawd on June 03, 2007, 01:30:56 AM
If you get this hard start figured out, let me know. My TGP has been doing this all week long. Never dont it befor. I am NOT running the yellow tops, but the L36 Injectors. My car takes 2 to 3 trys to get it started. First crank, spit spit, stumble, die. Second crank, either it does the same thing, or starts up and runs perfect.
No raw fuel smell, no leaking fuel anywhere that I can find. Getting pretty good fuel milage actually, drove 340 miles on one tank this week. I still hate using this car as my daily driver...
Hopefully we can work together and get this figured out.
Quote from: pontiac6ksteawd on June 03, 2007, 04:46:20 PM
Quote from: Prospeeder on June 03, 2007, 01:53:26 PM
you got 340 miles ona tank! LUCKY! I can barley get 210 miles on a tank.
Thats what I normally get.That tank I did all highway driving. saw as high as 28.2 mpg on the DIC when we first started the tank, lowest was 21.2
Why is your guys' mileage so horrible??? I get over 400 on a tank 9 times out of 10 - mostly highway mileage, but still. What makes yours so low?
I think I need to go see a doctor and get a unleaded foot. This lead foot is going to be the death of the TGP..
I drive my TGP pretty slow, its the cross over and injectors im sure
I have a new cross over, and replaced the injectors with the L36 injectors.
I have no problem going 450+ miles on a tank in my TGP. Purely highway driving, I could go further than that. The majority of my driving is highway. None of my cars are too bad on gas in the city though.
FWIW I can get a little over 400 miles on this cars full tank, the other one would get substantially less, I'd be lucky to get 320.
Matt I did use the top groove, I have no fuel issues or anything, that install went pretty smooth last year. The pink tops solved all my driveability issues, no hard starts or anything. I am pleased with my purchase, definetely.
I can't wait to see what kind of mileage I'm getting now that my driveability and fuel issues are solved!! :icon_mrgreen:
Just an update,
Removed the plenum.
I pressurized the rail, and checked for fuel leaks at all connections, and there is none.
I pulled the rail/injectors out of the intake manifold and pressurized the rail again. The injectors did not appear to be dripping or leaking.
I ohm checked all of the injectors and they read between 14.6 and 14.7 ohms. The factory injectors were in the low 12 ohm range, would this difference (12 ohms VS 14.6 ohms) make a difference?
I replaced the injector o-rings with brand new GM o-rings, that seemed to fit more snug in the rail and the manifold.
Here's a pic of the o-rings (from new injectors VS from old injectors VS brand new from GM)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c264/mshantz83/IMG_0311.jpg)
Here's a pic of the o-ring spacing, comparing new and old injectors, I use the slot seen just below the upper o-ring on the new injectors.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c264/mshantz83/IMG_0298.jpg)
I pressurized the rail after I reassembled it, and got just over 40 psi of fuel pressure.
I let the car sit over night (6 hrs) and the fuel pressure had gradually dropped to 20-25 psi overnight. Would you consider this to be normal?
It started hard when I first started the car, but maybe this was due to having the fuel system all apart......but I doubt it.
I drove the car around a bit (50 kms) and it worked fine, I'm going to let it sit overnight now again, and see how it starts tomorrow.
Any ideas or suggestions?
Just a poke in the dark..
Maybe your fuel pump cannot give enough steady pressure and is causing the fuel to not atomize well enough. Therefore, causing the fuel to puddle and gives you the hard start. Once the pump gets use from the prior start, it probably stays operating like it should until it gets cold again (overnight) .
.02
Yup....car still starts hard when cold....
Quote from: TGed on June 06, 2007, 03:58:49 PM
Just a poke in the dark..
Maybe your fuel pump cannot give enough steady pressure and is causing the fuel to not atomize well enough. Therefore, causing the fuel to puddle and gives you the hard start. Once the pump gets use from the prior start, it probably stays operating like it should until it gets cold again (overnight) .
.02
hmmm thats a good point, how would I be able to check this without changing the fuel pump on a whim?
I didn't have this problem before installing the new injectors, but maybe these new ones require more pressure to atomize the fuel than the OEM injectors.
If I go ahead and change the fuel pump, I hear lots of people use Walbro's (sp)
What model / part number should I be looking at?
Thanks guys.
You'd have to do a KeyOnEngineOff test then a KOER test. Record the results and compare to the specs you should have. Then maybe test the circuit for messed up wires causing you to loose voltage or a good ground causing the fuel pump to be over working it self. Look for corrosion.
.02
http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=3222.0 (http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=3222.0)
Should have the information you need
Update: I took it apart again, and re-installed my factory injectors which had had tested and cleaned here: http://www.kwfuelinjection.com/ I also put on the new injector o-rings I bought.
Put it all back together, and its seems to have solved my problem.
I'm thinking of taking the Yellow tops in to get tested to see if one if defective or what the deal is.