There is a guy over on a L-body site that is gaining interest in making a set of phenolic spacers for the 60V6 MPFI engines. He would need probably ATLEAST 10 for sure people to get in on this GB for him to make it happen. Cost of the product would probably be UNDER $80.00US. The guy originally designed a set for the quad four engines and seems to be making great progress. Some of you are probably going to ask, "Well how does this help our engine, what are some of the benefits?" . From what I know, the phenolic spacer will act like a heat barrier between the UIM/tb and the LIM. Less heat is always better in our situation (Heat soaking ftl).
Now if these engines were N/A and not FI, I would not even bother with this Group Buy. Reason being is that the MPFI runners are so long as it is, it'd hurt the top end (noticeably) even more for the n/a engine. Which that is the reason the higher the RPM we go the less power we make as it is. So making the runners longer is only going to magnify that problem mainly for a N/A engine like ours. Another question will probably be, "How thick are these going to be?". I would guess 3/8" is the size unless there is a clearance/alignment issue with that size.
Click Here (http://www.bstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=48827)
Sorry if this is posted in the wrong spot.
So, a tthe risk of sounding dumb...what the heck is a phelonic spacer and where does it go??
Quote from: grinders_18 on July 20, 2007, 09:21:30 PM
So, a tthe risk of sounding dumb...what the heck is a phelonic spacer and where does it go??
What he said...
Quote from: grinders_18 on July 20, 2007, 09:21:30 PM
So, a tthe risk of sounding dumb...what the heck is a phelonic spacer and where does it go??
That is not a dumb question at all.
The bake lite material spacer goes in between the LIM and UIM. The spacer would thermally isolate the manifold from engine heat soak, which will reduce the intake air temps.
do we really need any longer runners, I would think the intake air temp drop would not be enough to risk losing more top end. thats like calling the TB heater bypass a performance mod, It really doesn't make enough difference. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it would be worth it, but IMHO I wouldn't spend $80 for them.
Edit: Not trying to rain on your parade
Quote from: Dark Ride on July 20, 2007, 11:49:36 PM
do we really need any longer runners, I would think the intake air temp drop would not be enough to risk losing more top end. thats like calling the TB heater bypass a performance mod, It really doesn't make enough difference. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it would be worth it, but IMHO I wouldn't spend $80 for them.
Edit: Not trying to rain on your parade
Like I said originally, this is definitely not for the n/a engines, but more for the FI crowd (like us) . The amount of heat soak vrs the extra 3/8" of runner length in my opinion is worth the effort to cool down intake temps.
Just a quick site to briefly read what this material is somewhat about...
http://www.sdplastics.com/phenolic.html
:-)
Spacer did 3 things for me. Reduced heat, more room under the UIM for the harnesses :icon_biggrin: and allowed my TB to clear the WG. If you run a bigger TB and intake pipe the spacer is a must. I used 1/2'' spacer and with a 2 1/2 intake it just clears the WG.
80 is a good deal. For the DIY the material alone 55 from grainger shipped. It's enough to make 4. About 3 hrs labor if you have a router and a ball bearing bit. From an N/C machine shop for 20 parts it's around a 35-40 a part ea. depending how they process the program, scan a gasket or go from a drawing that somebody would have to make.
Supplier wasen't grainger it was McMaster Carr. Sorry about that.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/sleeperred90tgp/GT3076/IMG_0009.jpg?t=1185027232)
3.1 would be similar
Alright. If it's good enough for Jud then count me in please.
Quote from: The Master on July 21, 2007, 07:52:56 PM
Alright. If it's good enough for Jud then count me in please.
I'll email the guy doing the group buy.
To make sure EVERYONE knows this is for the 3.1 AND 2.8 MPFI's and NOT the 3100/3400's.
EDIT: The guy should be on here shortly.
I guess I stand corrected, :icon_redface: Jud would know more than I would.
So whos 100% interested in this group buy?
Hey everyone!
Im doing the spacer designs. I would like say that we will need to get at least 10 buyers to go forward with this. Anything less, and the price per set becomes quite expensive. If we can get more than 10, the price per kit will drop further. So, worse case senario, 70 dollars shipped for the set. Money is not due until the list is fully populated. Then once the order is submitted for manufaturing, it could take another month before they are in each of your mail boxes. If all goes well, I will try to keep a few extras on hand so they will be available in the future.
Also, i would like to ask if there are any other little pieces or parts that would be cool to have. Im able to make a wide variety of items made from many materials, Steel, Aluminum, plastics, etc. If you would be intersted in seeing what I have come up with so far, please check out www.quadper4mance.com. and id love to hear any ideas you have for the TGP platform.
If yall have any other questions about the phenolic spacers, just ask. thanks
Shawn@quadper4mance.com
Oh, and here are some screenshots of the designs, these are exactly like the gaskets, but 1/2 inch thick Phenolic Bakelite.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/100_1055.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/100_1056.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/100_1054.jpg)
Awesome cad work!
Hey guys... I have not posted in a while, but I have a great group buy for you! Phenolic Spacers for the 2.8L and 3.1L engine! The gropup buy is actually taking place over on the Beretta Stuff forums.
This would be for mounting in between the head and the intake manifold, which would thermally isolate the manifold from engine heat soak, in turn reducing intake air temps. I have designed one in autocad, and have submitted it for quote.
It is using a material called "Bakelite", which is a canvas composite phenolic material. It is .375 (3/8") thickness, red in color. It will be milled out on a Water Jet CNC machine for high precision. once the order is placed, they should be to me in about 15 days, and then another 5 days at most to you.
I wish i could post a 3D rendering of it, but im using a different style of autocad, and i cannot render it. this style is only used to program the CNC machines, not really made for project sharing. At any rate, its very close in shape to the stock intake gasket, all holes will line up perfectly.
Please see here for more information: http://www.bstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=48827 (http://www.bstuff.com/index.php?showtopic=48827)
dont be thrown off by the fact that the thread starts out as a group buy for the Quad 4 engines. On page 3 there are some pictures and more info. on the spacers for the 3.1L engine that you guys will be interested in.
If you have any questions, please feel free to hit me up!
Looks like were besieged by spacer makers. :laugh: Maybe you should join the other guy. Check out the off topic forum. Maybe your from the same camp. At least I didn't have to regestar to see his pictures that he has as an example of. Do you think were all going to register to a forum that we could care less about to view a couplel pictures.
I would like to see how you get a 3/8 spacer between the head and the intake. That will be a neat trick. :laugh:
They need to be 1/2 inch for me. What kind of kerf taper do you get on 1/2 thick if any. :icon_question: Or do you have a 5 axis head that can eliminate any kerf taper.
How much are you asking for 2 of them?
Jud
Yes, this is the same GB mentioned in the offtopic area. as he pointed out, the thread he copied and pasted was from the Quad 4 add. then people began to ask about doing them for the 3.1/2.8, so i designed some of them as well. So, no these ones will not go between the head and LIM, id like to see that one done too! these are of course for inbetween the LIM and UIM. they also will be 1/2" thickness for the 3.1.
Ill check on that kerf for you, but i recall it very extremely minimal, but no, there is no 5 axis available at this time. Ill post the exact numbers as soon as i find out again.
We're looking at about 70 shipped per set.
:laugh:
http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4233.0
Need a few more people to make this happen. If you need additional information please speak up.
Few questions:
1) will this in any way, shape, or form interfere with the upper intercooler pipe, or throttle body, or anything at all? Or does it just go right on, no worries about anything not reaching like it did before? I'm tired right now, just got off work, so all this makes sense to me, but if you need me to clarify, I'll be back this afternoon lol.
2) What kind of gains come with this?
3) Pros as well as cons. Need to know both.
Lastly, how long would you guesstimate this would take for the average person to install? I'm assuming I wouldn't need intake gaskets would I?
The gasket will be 1/2" thick, that being said it will RAISE the plenum that much higher. I dont THINK it would cause for a big change on how things fit together in the engine bay... The silicone coupler should be able to take up some of that angle change.
Some of you are probably going to ask, "Well how does this help our engine, what are some of the benefits?" . From what I know, the phenolic spacer will act like a heat barrier between the UIM/tb and the LIM. Less heat is always better in our situation (Heat soaking ftl).
The bake lite material spacer goes in between the LIM and UIM. The spacer would thermally isolate the manifold from engine heat soak, which will reduce the intake air temps.
Now if these engines were N/A 3.1's and not FI, I would not even bother with this Group Buy. Reason being is that the MPFI runners are so long as it is, it'd hurt the top end (BUT noticeably) even more for the n/a engine. Which that is the reason the higher the RPM we go the less power we make as it is. So making the runners longer is only going to magnify that problem mainly for a N/A engine like the 3.11 NON turbo.
If you can change plenum gaskets, you can install this spacer. That is pretty much how easy this is to install. I THINK you'd need two plenum gaskets (one for the top and one for the bottom) for the spacer since it is a hard material and longer bolts (1/2" longer) to take up the extra length.
I'm in pending pictures of a completed set of 3.1 MPFI spacers.
93luminaz34- I will probably only be ordering the exact amount of spacers that are pre-ordered. I understand you want to see a picture first, but I believe by time there are pictures, there will be no more available for sale. This is why I have posted the technical drawings, so you can see what they will look like, and someone else has posted pics of an actual set they made, other than that, I dont think I can accomodate your finished picture request. Im very sorry.
That's understandable. I'm still interested though.
So here's the group buy people:
1. Nukkinfuttz--Paid
2. TGed-- Paid
3. Styluss -- Payment Pending
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Add yourself as needed.
So here's the group buy people:
1. Nukkinfuttz--Paid
2. TGed-- Paid
3. Styluss -- Payment Pending
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Add yourself as needed
I really don't get what kind of performance gains I can get. Until I can get a definate, I can;t justify buying an overly large gasket. Not trying to put it down, I'm sure it's great...but I need facts before I dish out that kind of cash.
You'll know for a fact it'll reduce intake temps since that material will not absorb heat like metal on metal contact would normally do.
Quote from: grinders_18 on August 06, 2007, 09:03:43 PM
I really don't get what kind of performance gains I can get. Until I can get a definate, I can;t justify buying an overly large gasket. Not trying to put it down, I'm sure it's great...but I need facts before I dish out that kind of cash.
I would like to use sleeperred90tgp words for a minute:
QuoteSpacer did 3 things for me. Reduced heat, more room under the UIM for the harnesses icon_biggrin and allowed my TB to clear the WG. If you run a bigger TB and intake pipe the spacer is a must. I used 1/2'' spacer and with a 2 1/2 intake it just clears the WG.
80 is a good deal. For the DIY the material alone 55 from grainger shipped. It's enough to make 4. About 3 hrs labor if you have a router and a ball bearing bit. From an N/C machine shop for 20 parts it's around a 35-40 a part ea. depending how they process the program, scan a gasket or go from a drawing that somebody would have to make.
Bump
Click (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question517.htm)
I am a little curious on a couple things,,...
1) Someone did mention something about longer bolts... Where would be a good place to get them and cost issue on them.
2) Would you still need a set of gaskets or does the spacer act as a gasket too.
3) Vacuum lines, they seem to already be a pretty tight fit as it is, would raising the TB 1/2 inch pose a problem with them.
I am just goin off on these few things, since I just took off my plenum this past weekend, which I might add was not that difficult. The only problem I really had was getting the PCV back. But the plenum can come off in about 15-20 min really, it's not that hard.
Edit: re-read post up and saw that new gaskets would probably be needed.
Quote from: meltboy11 on August 13, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
I am a little curious on a couple things,,...
Quote from: meltboy11 on August 13, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
1) Someone did mention something about longer bolts... Where would be a good place to get them and cost issue on them.
Local Hardware Stores should carry them, I bought mine at the near by paint & supply place (like an aco)
Quote from: meltboy11 on August 13, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
3) Vacuum lines, they seem to already be a pretty tight fit as it is, would raising the TB 1/2 inch pose a problem with them.
I honesty cannot say since I dont have the gaskets, but I should be able to substitute the gap and report the findings.
Quote from: meltboy11 on August 13, 2007, 07:21:25 AM
I am just goin off on these few things, since I just took off my plenum this past weekend, which I might add was not that difficult. The only problem I really had was getting the PCV back. But the plenum can come off in about 15-20 min really, it's not that hard.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Turbo2/50spacedtb.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Turbo2/50spacedtb1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Turbo2/50spacedtb2.jpg)
I spaced the plenum up .50" (1/2") and I didn't see any issues. The only thing I dont have hooked up and have not had hooked up for a few years now is the throttle body coolant lines (those two rubber lines) . I am almost certain if it is of any issue you could just buy some rubber heater hoses and cut to length then reclamp it. The vacuum lines didnt seem to have an issue with the .50 raise. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/smilies/Up.gif)
Just for kicks I spaced the plenum up a little more...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Turbo2/75spacedtb.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/Turbo2/75spacedtb1.jpg)
No real visual issues were seen, but I did see the vacuum line for the charcoal canister kind of bend. I just tugged the line and repositioned it a little and it fit. If you wanted to you could add in a stretch of rubber vacuum line to it to sleep easier at night. I'd like to again point out those two rubber coolant lines. Same idea as above to possibly fix it if needed.
3/4"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/smilies/Up.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/3400GT/smilies/Up.gif)
Updated:
http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4233.15
Quote from: TGed on August 01, 2007, 09:21:26 PM
So here's the group buy people:
1. Nukkinfuttz--Paid
2. TGed-- Paid
3. Styluss -- Payment Pending
4. meltboy11-- Jim---
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Add yourself as needed.
figure wth... it looks as it should provide gains, and why not be one of the very few people that has one of these. Maybe I should get my mom one for her regal...lol
Keep it in one place guys.
-Kenny
sorry, I thought this was the place, there is another place I should post?
I think this is the offical thread for the spacers now. :icon_wink:
Quote from: meltboy11 on August 28, 2007, 07:10:49 AM
sorry, I thought this was the place, there is another place I should post?
No worries.
It was in two places. Here and Off-Topic.
Now it is here to stay. ;)
Our Quad 4 spacers arrived a few days ago. You can go by these pics to see the quality of the real pieces, and know that this is not a joke, we can and will do this for you guys if the demand is there.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/100_1112-1.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/100_1111.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x284/nukkinfuttz/spacer.jpg)
what is the material you are using for this?
Its called "Bakelite". You can look it up on wikipedia for more detailed info. Its an industrial grade material, it has good heat insulation properties, and can withstand high operating temps without breaking down. This is the same material that is being used by most every other Phenolic spacer maker. You can expect it to be re-usable, and last a very long time. Its the worlds first synthetic plastic.
Quote from: TGed on July 21, 2007, 01:23:32 AM
Just a quick site to briefly read what this material is somewhat about...
http://www.sdplastics.com/phenolic.html
:-)
;)
Just giving this a bump to make sure everyone knows that this is still going down when we get 10 folks in on this deal.
we are at 4 now right... come on... 6 more people, lets go... :p
ill take a set were do i pay
Just go here http://www.quadper4mance.com/v6spacer
Email that guy (The guy making this all happen for us) and have him add you to the list.
1. Outtahere--Paid
2. 1988GTU-- Paid
3. Styluss -- Payment Pending
4. meltboy11-- Jim--- (tgpforum)
5. mstreimz24 --- --- (tgpforum)
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
*
Add yourself as needed!
Checking back after I've had some time to think this over. Is this deal still active?
Also, Nukkinfutz, you asked if there was anything else you can make for us. If you could make a clip to hold our throttle vacuum blocks into place, that'd be a big seller!
I asked a month or two ago and it looks like we are just waiting on more people still...
Quote from: grinders_18 on March 07, 2008, 07:57:48 PM
Also, Nukkinfutz, you asked if there was anything else you can make for us. If you could make a clip to hold our throttle vacuum blocks into place, that'd be a big seller!
Thats a great idea. Lemme ask, do you guys use the exact same TB and rubber vac distibutor as the N/A cars? I will need to pick up the stuff to take measurements from, but i doubt i would be able to find another F/I 3.1 for a while, but if they are all the same, I will design something up for you guys real soon. :)
Quote from: Nukkinfuttz on March 11, 2008, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: grinders_18 on March 07, 2008, 07:57:48 PM
Also, Nukkinfutz, you asked if there was anything else you can make for us. If you could make a clip to hold our throttle vacuum blocks into place, that'd be a big seller!
Thats a great idea. Lemme ask, do you guys use the exact same TB and rubber vac distibutor as the N/A cars? I will need to pick up the stuff to take measurements from, but i doubt i would be able to find another F/I 3.1 for a while, but if they are all the same, I will design something up for you guys real soon. :)
Yes and no. Most 3.1s have 3 vacuum lines on top of the TB, but ours and most older ones (maybe only '90?) had 4 lines - the extra one going to the vacuum EGR (newer motors had digital EGR).
I feel if he made one to go around the ones equipped for the vacuum EGR port, it would also fit for the non-available EGR port style too.
As for the spacers, just need people to sign up & it's a go!
Quote from: TGed on March 11, 2008, 07:33:21 PM
I feel if he made one to go around the ones equipped for the vacuum EGR port, it would also fit for the non-available EGR port style too.
As for the spacers, just need people to sign up & it's a go!
yea, but no one would need one for the digital EGR setup.. unless they were swapping up to a newer 3.1 and absolutely had to have that piece to complete their swap :rolleyes:
Quote from: GutlessSupreme on March 11, 2008, 10:34:02 PM
Quote from: TGed on March 11, 2008, 07:33:21 PM
I feel if he made one to go around the ones equipped for the vacuum EGR port, it would also fit for the non-available EGR port style too.
As for the spacers, just need people to sign up & it's a go!
yea, but no one would need one for the digital EGR setup.. unless they were swapping up to a newer 3.1 and absolutely had to have that piece to complete their swap :rolleyes:
You have to support the tree hugging hippies somehow... Well not really, but it'll prevent them from #####ing. Or for those that deleted the EGR.
so this project pretty much shit the bed for us eh?
Well it didnt gain enough folks interests.
Keep checking in though............... I might have a huge update in the next 3 weeks. ;)
lol ok, it's just spring is right around the corner so I am startin to get ideas for the car... :p
Slight update.
I have the material, I have the dimensions and I have most of the cutting machinery set up and ready to start processing.
Only thing I am waiting on for is the hardware to make it happen. This is going to be an one man show (Me) and I will have to pay for the hardware and parts that I had to buy to rebuild the machinery. I probably will not be able to update for a little while since shipping is delaying me upto 20 days.
If it's okay with the mods, I'd like to start a NEW thread since I am the one doing it all now. Nukkinfuttz is not affiliated with this project.