Well as you all remember I had an oiling issue back in early June of this year. See post http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4833.0 I THOUGHT my nice new turbo had escaped the wrath of the oil pump pickup falling off but unfortunately it started leaking oil out the back a few weeks ago. Needless to say Adam helped me out and tore it down for a rebuild. Long story short the turbine seal had rotated in the housing causing the leak, my thrust bearing was shot and the bearing housing had some nice grooves in it from the seal rotating around. I needed a new bearing housing....well apparently the T25 centers are getting hard to come by and garrett is no longer supporting them and the aftermarket ones are almost non-existent at this time. Basically unless you have a stockpile of good centers you are going to have to upgrade. Since I was tired of the wet bearing's tempermental oiling system I decided to bite the bullet and drop the Gs on a brand new Garrett turbo.
Now you all know that I'm setup to log WB O2 in tuner pro, I have 28 lb ls1 injectors and a walboro 255 liter/hr pump. I'm set up from the fuel aspect. So I decided to go a little bigger than the disco potato and got the GT2871R P/N 743347-1 with the .86 A/R turbine housing http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_1.htm
Now this is not a cheep turbo but I got a nice deal on it from a local tuner shop with a 1 year warrenty so I got out the checkbook and did it, let me tell you I'm glad I did! I'm set at 12 psi right now and it is faster than the disco was at 14 and maybe 16 psi! That and the underhood temperatures have dropped...........a lot.
You're going to need some things to make this work and unlike those of the past (who shall remain nameless) I'm going to tell you what you need EXACTLY to do this upgrade! It is really not that hard. If you are stock you are going to need a tune so use search and find out who to talk to. Or you can teach yourself with some help from experts, thanks for the help Adam!
First things first you need to buy the turbo and fuel system to support this stuff. I'm not going to tell you what to do with that here I'm only going to tell you the plumbing aspects.
Ball bearing turbos do not need as much oil as the T series wet bearings we have from the factory (well you guys have I had nothing hahah) really you only need 5-25 psi for a ball bearing turbo. Most retails will sell the turbo with a -4 AN male restrictor with a 0.035" orifice in it to go from the 60-70 psi the high volume TGP pump throws out. This goes to a flair fitting that interfaces with the center bearing housing. You can buy it here if you don't get one with your turbo. You need it otherwise you are going to push oil out the seals and it will leave blue clouds behind you, and I'm not talking from the tires.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-021&Category_Code=ATP-OIL1
Next you need a -4 AN female oil feed line, I had the tuner shop make me one but you can buy them. I had mine made 3 ft long but I think 2.5 ft would have been plenty as I have extra length. You can also buy this directly from ATP turbo here:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-014&Category_Code=ATP-OIL1
Ok now you need to get some fittings to hook up to you stock oil feel line down by the ignition module. For this you are going to need a -4 AN aluminum to 1/8 NPT male Adapter, a 1/8 NPT female copper or aluminum coupler (get this in the plumbing section of lowes or home depot) and a -4 AN Steel to 1/8 NPT adapter. You also need some permatex high temperature thread sealant from autozone. Basically you stick the two adapters into the 1/8 NPT coupler with the thread sealer and tighten them together. Then take the AL adapter and put it into the oil feed line and the steel one into the stock oil feed line coming out by the filter. Then the other end of the oil feed line goes to the restrictor from above and into the turbo CBH. Here are some parts from summit's catalog:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AER%2DFBM2001&N=700+115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AER%2DFBM2512&N=700+115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EAR%2D991001ERL&N=700+115&autoview=sku
Next you need a drain back. The turbo has a 2 bolt flange for the drain with a gasket. Most of the retailers have an aluminum 2 bolt flange with the -10AN male fitting on the end. You can buy this from them and get a -10 AN to 5/8 barb fitting to clamp to our stock drain back line. Like this but not exactly I'll post the earl p/n when I get home but you get the idea. You need 8 mm 1.5 thread pitch socket head cap screws about .5 " long to hook up to the center housing.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AER%2DFBM1514&N=700+115&autoview=sku
or if you got $$$ you can get this nice one piece deal from ATP turbo
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-031&Category_Code=GTBB
Ok you got the oil taken care of. Next you need coolant. I went with (12) inch braided stainless -6 an female lines going to a -6 AN Male to 14 MM adapter and into the housing of the turbo. Then on the other end of the stainless line you need a -6 an male to 3/8 Barb adapter. Do this for both coolant lines and use 3/8 transmission cooler hose from autozone to clamp to the stock feed and heater return pipe. Again use thread sealer on the fittings going into the housing, thread sealer is not needed for the AN fittings as they are designed to seal fluid. Here are some more links to parts at summit I used:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RUS%2D658490&N=700+400081+115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EAR%2D9919DFHERL&N=700+115&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RUS%2D670300&N=700+115&autoview=sku
Now once you get all that stuff together don't go putting it on the turbo just yet. You are going to have to orient the turbine and compressor housings for our application. Basically you are going to have to get it so the oil feed is on top but slightly off center towards the drivers side of the car. This will put the drain back pointing towards the pan and not the AC lines (I found that out that hard way) You also have to watch your coolant lines, the coolant feed (passenger side of the turbo) has to be pointing up so the line will go over the 4 bolt flange when the turbo is installed. To reorient your housings take a 1/2 wrench and loosen all the bolts on the turbine and compressor, you don't have to take them out just loosen them so you can rotate the housings. Your going to have to take off the wastegate clip and stuff too.
Now put your fittings and lines on the turbo, plop it into the car and using your 8 mm 1.5 thread pitch bolts attach two bolts washers, lock washers and nuts to the 4 bolt flange but leave them loose. This is a pain as our stock t25 housings have threads which makes this easier but the GT2871R has thru holes. If I ever take mine out again I'm going to drill and helicoil the damn flange so I dont have to futz with nuts and washers. It is a pain and took the longest to do. Then loosely bolt up the downpipe. I had trouble threading one of the bolts and you might have to slot the dp holes a bit to make it easier. I did not just left all the bolts loose and eventually I got them all in without cross threading. The flange is supposed to be the same 5 bolt we had from the factory but who knows what ASC's manufacturing tolerances were on the downpipe probably crappy.
Oh you are going to need a filter since the turbo has a 3" inlet. I went with a K&N RB 9010 I think I'll double check this and update if it is different. All and all it when pretty well once you get the lines all configured! The outlet of the compressor is 2 inch so the stock intercooler coupler will bolt up just fine. BTW I did not use the 4 bolt flange gasket even though it came with one and I have no exhaust leaks. Then again I had my crossver flange decked at the machine shop at work a few months back. Your results may vary so beware you might need the gasket if your flange is warped.
Enough of this on with the pictures and video at the end! Nothing crazy just idle and my setup!
Ken
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Great job looks like it was built by a perfectionist... o wait your an engineer! what are you hopin for the 1320?
hahah yeah I went a bit overboard but if you are going to spend a chunk of money for a BB turbo you might as well go all out on the rest of the stuff. Anyways 1320 lets see I ran a 14.56 on the disco with a hurt motor, now I have a nice turbo cam, exhaust with no mufflers and this big ol turbo now.....I'd be pretty disappointed if I can't get a low 14 out of the car at 12 psi. I'm hoping for high 13's at 12 without having to crank it up more. I "accidently" turned it up to 15-16 last night and it was damn fast. So I'm pretty confident at 16 psi (for a track time only) I could hit 13's for sure. I'm going to dyno it soon too I need to know what this thing is making for power ;)
Ken
damn that sounds good... so I think I decided instead of storing my TGP this winter, I am just gona drop it off at your place in october and pick it up next year sounding like that.... lol!!
I know I'm surprised it sounds so good. :laugh: The exhaust is sooooo hacked up! All it is a twin cam exhaust I got at the u pullit for 20 bucks with the muffler cut off:) I left the resonator on it and put those nice gibson tips on the extension pipes I had welded on. I think I might have $150 into the exhaust including the 50 bucks each for the stainless tips. The cam helps with the sound too haha. Come on down Jim! I gotta give you a ring and see when you want to hit ESTA. BTW the car will be at Spedie Fest in the car show this Sunday if you are heading down. Spedie Fest is at Otsenango park (can't spell it!) Big hot air balloon rally and spedie cookoffs too.
Ken
What RPM's are you spooling up at now? When I upgraded mine, the powerband changed slightly with supporting mods.
as usual nice work! and thanks for the write-up
ohhh where is your o2 located now?
Quote from: TGed on July 31, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
What RPM's are you spooling up at now? When I upgraded mine, the powerband changed slightly with supporting mods.
I think it is starting to spool around 2500-3k rpm and full boost by 4250 k? Does that sound like yours? It actually spools faster and sooner than my disco hyrid did, which is to be expected :)
Quote from: GOT2B GM on July 31, 2008, 10:23:16 AM
ohhh where is your o2 located now?
Oh yeah :laugh: when I installed my LC-1 I had a bung welded at the bottom of the down pipe at the bend by the sway bar. I kept going through narrow band o2's for a while when tuning I got sick of it and hooked up the simulated narrowband output on the LC-1 to a stock connector and plugged it into stock harness. So basically I have the LC-1 giving WB to the dash O-meter, the ECM for data logging and running the car on the simulated narrow. 1 O2 does it all!
Ken
I can boost about 14 psi at around 2500-3000 rpm's. ;)
What is that line coming off the port on your fuel rail?
Quote from: TGed on July 31, 2008, 10:52:44 AM
I can boost about 14 psi at around 2500-3000 rpm's. ;)
Nice you must have an automatic? I just looked at my 4th gear highway pull log from last night, full boost by 4350.
If I get line lock and don't mind smoking my cluch I can do a nice clutch boost for the track;) I'm not that cool where I can heal toe break boost a 5 speed. :icon_rolleyes: hahahah
Ken
Quote from: TGP Nick on July 31, 2008, 11:07:44 AM
What is that line coming off the port on your fuel rail?
A spare stock oil feed line going to my electronic fuel pressure sender, I monitor fuel pressure in cabin.......that was the gauge that changes color in the video. Pretty handy actually helped me troubleshoot a lot of stuff from bad fuel pump relay to not enough fuel pump capacity.
Ken
Can't, goin campin this weekend... not to mention I aint even driven the TGP in like at least 3 weeks. I was gona take it out today for a qucik spin, but it was raining. I don't wana take it to the track or put a lot on it til I get the stuff wrong with it fixed. But right now my efforts are goin into the 89 first, it needs 1 rear strut bad, I can put all my weight down on the drivers side rear and it doesn't move, so I will just replace both cuz I don't see a point in replacing only one. I also might get some new mufflers for it as it is pretty loud right now. But I kinda wana just wait, cuz I was plannin on just takin the TGPs exhaust and putting it on the 89 and building a new one for the TGP. I just don't have the funds right now, so it looks like the TGP won't be gettin too much more action this summer sadly... :(
WOW!! Nice write up and install. I to would like to know what you are putting to the pavement. ;) Gotta love the BB series turbo. They just sound wicked and spool super fast. With that up grade I would say you added 50WHP + a few foot lbs of torque too.. :icon_biggrin: Enjoy I know I would... :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: flybynite on July 31, 2008, 03:22:00 PM
WOW!! Nice write up and install. I to would like to know what you are putting to the pavement. ;) Gotta love the BB series turbo. They just sound wicked and spool super fast. With that up grade I would say you added 50WHP + a few foot lbs of torque too.. :icon_biggrin: Enjoy I know I would... :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks Adam it definately feels faster it feels very smooth! I can't wait to get it to the track! Thanks for the help
Quote from: meltboy11 on July 31, 2008, 02:37:41 PM
Can't, goin campin this weekend... not to mention I aint even driven the TGP in like at least 3 weeks. I was gona take it out today for a qucik spin, but it was raining. I don't wana take it to the track or put a lot on it til I get the stuff wrong with it fixed. But right now my efforts are goin into the 89 first, it needs 1 rear strut bad, I can put all my weight down on the drivers side rear and it doesn't move, so I will just replace both cuz I don't see a point in replacing only one. I also might get some new mufflers for it as it is pretty loud right now. But I kinda wana just wait, cuz I was plannin on just takin the TGPs exhaust and putting it on the 89 and building a new one for the TGP. I just don't have the funds right now, so it looks like the TGP won't be gettin too much more action this summer sadly... :(
Quote from: meltboy11 on July 31, 2008, 02:37:41 PM
Can't, goin campin this weekend... not to mention I aint even driven the TGP in like at least 3 weeks. I was gona take it out today for a qucik spin, but it was raining. I don't wana take it to the track or put a lot on it til I get the stuff wrong with it fixed. But right now my efforts are goin into the 89 first, it needs 1 rear strut bad, I can put all my weight down on the drivers side rear and it doesn't move, so I will just replace both cuz I don't see a point in replacing only one. I also might get some new mufflers for it as it is pretty loud right now. But I kinda wana just wait, cuz I was plannin on just takin the TGPs exhaust and putting it on the 89 and building a new one for the TGP. I just don't have the funds right now, so it looks like the TGP won't be gettin too much more action this summer sadly... :(
Well man if you think you need an exhaust I have the old one from my 88 you can have if you come get it. It has like 80 k on it and looks brand new, It is in a few pieces but I have the two mufflers with the crossover pipe and the pipe that goes over the suspension. You can bolt it up and have it welded up to your pipe in front of the axle. Anyways these se's are loud from the factory.........yours might be fine my car was silent with the turbo compared to when it was NA.......
no, my car is obnoxious at times... lol idk I definately gotta get down there sometime before the summer is over... I'll see what I can do.
Quote from: cobracmdr on July 31, 2008, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: TGed on July 31, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
What RPM's are you spooling up at now? When I upgraded mine, the powerband changed slightly with supporting mods.
I think it is starting to spool around 2500-3k rpm and full boost by 4250 k? Does that sound like yours? It actually spools faster and sooner than my disco hyrid did, which is to be expected :)
I'm not up on times :icon_redface: Is your engine stock? My 3076R spools at 3000 and has full boost sooner than that :icon_question:
I love how smooth they spool! That and it still amazes me how long the compressor wheel spins after the car has been shut off :laugh:
Quote from: z284pwr on August 09, 2008, 11:23:32 PM
Quote from: cobracmdr on July 31, 2008, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: TGed on July 31, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
What RPM's are you spooling up at now? When I upgraded mine, the powerband changed slightly with supporting mods.
I think it is starting to spool around 2500-3k rpm and full boost by 4250 k? Does that sound like yours? It actually spools faster and sooner than my disco hyrid did, which is to be expected :)
I'm not up on times :icon_redface: Is your engine stock? My 3076R spools at 3000 and has full boost sooner than that :icon_question:
I love how smooth they spool! That and it still amazes me how long the compressor wheel spins after the car has been shut off :laugh:
Yeah I don't really know when it spools and all that jazz depends on what gear I'm in, 1st is like so fast I glance at the tach right before redline. No I'm not really stock, high flow exhaust, ls1 injectors, BOV, custom cam.......I'm a little 2.8 but this thing screams. I was hoping to hit the track last saturday but I had a conflict. I'll probably hit the 1/8this friday. I want to get it on the dyno and put some numbers to it. Soon I will.
Ken
It probably depends on how you launch or how much of a roll you come off the line with street tires, im sure you can hit full boost by 3000 and seeing the 2871 would have less lag than the 3076. I want to see some numbers to man, sorry to hear you didnt get to run.
Quote from: cobracmdr on August 11, 2008, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: z284pwr on August 09, 2008, 11:23:32 PM
Quote from: cobracmdr on July 31, 2008, 10:46:33 AM
Quote from: TGed on July 31, 2008, 10:20:17 AM
What RPM's are you spooling up at now? When I upgraded mine, the powerband changed slightly with supporting mods.
I think it is starting to spool around 2500-3k rpm and full boost by 4250 k? Does that sound like yours? It actually spools faster and sooner than my disco hyrid did, which is to be expected :)
I'm not up on times :icon_redface: Is your engine stock? My 3076R spools at 3000 and has full boost sooner than that :icon_question:
I love how smooth they spool! That and it still amazes me how long the compressor wheel spins after the car has been shut off :laugh:
Yeah I don't really know when it spools and all that jazz depends on what gear I'm in, 1st is like so fast I glance at the tach right before redline. No I'm not really stock, high flow exhaust, ls1 injectors, BOV, custom cam.......I'm a little 2.8 but this thing screams. I was hoping to hit the track last saturday but I had a conflict. I'll probably hit the 1/8this friday. I want to get it on the dyno and put some numbers to it. Soon I will.
Ken
Wow I fail at reading! :icon_redface:
What are the specs on your cam? Do you have them available? Engle's website fails at giving me specs of usefulness. I'm curious to see how much of a "turbo" cam you have compared to mine since mine is suppose to be a "turbo" cam as well. On that note, you sig says you have an EGT gauge as well. What kind of EGTs do you see?
I'm more curious to see the ETs than Dyno numbers, you should be right there with Kuntzie's times if not faster since your engine isn't stock, just keep that poor transmission together! :icon_biggrin:
Thanks man Engle is an only time cam manufacturer. You have to call to get the cam specs.
Or check out my build thread http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4833.0
I have a spec 3 clutch so I should be able to hold the power. I just tore the driver side axle out tonight to replace the seal.......I have had a small transmission fluid leak I'm trying to fix. I should be ready to hit the 1/8 mile by Friday. I'll post up times very soon.
Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on August 11, 2008, 07:56:36 PM
Thanks man Engle is an only time cam manufacturer. You have to call to get the cam specs.
Or check out my build thread http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4833.0
I have a spec 3 clutch so I should be able to hold the power. I just tore the driver side axle out tonight to replace the seal.......I have had a small transmission fluid leak I'm trying to fix. I should be ready to hit the 1/8 mile by Friday. I'll post up times very soon.
Ken
Well good luck at the track indeed!
You cam is almost identical to mine so I would assume your EGTs will be about the same as mine. How is your top end? Your build thread stated you felt the top end was better, which it should, did you do anything to the heads or any valve train components to let it rev higher or are you still shifting around 5500 still?
Quote from: z284pwr on August 12, 2008, 08:18:02 PM
Quote from: cobracmdr on August 11, 2008, 07:56:36 PM
Thanks man Engle is an only time cam manufacturer. You have to call to get the cam specs.
Or check out my build thread http://www.tgpforums.com/index.php?topic=4833.0
I have a spec 3 clutch so I should be able to hold the power. I just tore the driver side axle out tonight to replace the seal.......I have had a small transmission fluid leak I'm trying to fix. I should be ready to hit the 1/8 mile by Friday. I'll post up times very soon.
Ken
Well good luck at the track indeed!
You cam is almost identical to mine so I would assume your EGTs will be about the same as mine. How is your top end? Your build thread stated you felt the top end was better, which it should, did you do anything to the heads or any valve train components to let it rev higher or are you still shifting around 5500 still?
I'm shifting at 6k rpms. My EGTs at WOT runs ( I did a 5th gear pull last night up to 125 mph! Wow that thing pulls at those speeds!) and my egts are much lower with the BB turbo. My egt temp was like 650 C which is right at 1202 F at WOT. I remember my wet bearing turbo was getting up to 750 C almost 775 C on highway pulls that is almost 1427 F ! Mega hot!
My EGT gauge I got for a steal it is an EGT/Boost/Vac combo gauge I got from an audi/porsche performance shop on ebay for like 100 bucks. It is an Omnori I think. Displays everything in metric including boost which is in Kg/cm^2 but I just do the conversion, rough estimate is 1.0 on the gauge is 14.2 psig which is about what I'm running right now.
Other than the cam, I have 95 3100 1.6 rocker arms (no retainers) I was going to do LSX valve springs, shims, seats etc when I had the motor apart but everything was on a short time table so I could not get the spring seats in time so I had to put it off. It is in my plans for the future but then again so is a 3400 top end swap with a 3500 manifold so I will probably hold off until then for the valve stuff and put it on the gen 3 heads.
Mid range is really good now, top end is still a little flat for my taste but it really pulls off the line which I like. I will probably leave it alone for a year or so I have had my fill of wrenching for this year......I finally have it all together and everything working including a good tune so I'm not all that eager to scramble it all up again!
good luck
Ken
well it's Friday night, did you get the car to the track? We need some ETs here! :laugh:
Quote from: z284pwr on August 15, 2008, 10:45:47 PM
well it's Friday night, did you get the car to the track? We need some ETs here! :laugh:
9.21 at 78 mph then I sheared the intermediate shaft on my last run. I have to go find one now I'm off the yard slash norwich to buy a 5 speed parts car. Wish me luck so I can get this thing back on the road!
Ken
9.21, not to bad, it's only 0.26 behind what Kuntzie ran. Hopefully this isn't the starting of nasty axle breaking! :icon_confused:
How bad is the traction? Oh, where are you located too? Obviously elevation is going to be a big key on how it runs
Binghamton, NY. Traction is not the problem it is wheel hop! I can't afford to break anything else so I'm afraid that is going to be my last trip to the track for a bit, if I do go I'm not launching that hard I'm going to have to get rolling then nail it after I get going to avoid the hop.
Ken
Ken, maybe if you locked the rear suspension with something to keep it more firm youd get rid of some wheel hop? Also ill keep an eye out for an intermediate shaft, do barettas have the one you need? also, maybe post in wanted on 60degree.
I got lucky and found a parts 88 gpse in Norwich which is 40 miles from me. I bought it for 450 and towed it back to my house. I sheared the intermediate shaft, blew up the passenger axle and the drivers axle was leaking grease so I replaced it too. So the white car is back on the road again after a VERY long day of pulling parts off the parts car and swapping them onto my car.
Berretta's are too short I think it has to be out of a W body.......I got a few leads on some spares oon W-body but if you find one Ike let me know I could always use a spare.
Ken
nice find, glad to hear its back. the 282 w-bodys arent easy to come by, im always scouring the yards for them, Did you get anything else good off the car? I forgot to grab the firewall plate for my 5 speed swap, and the shifter is broke, if you could get either of these parts let me know! thanks Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on August 17, 2008, 08:58:59 PM
I got lucky and found a parts 88 gpse in Norwich which is 40 miles from me. I bought it for 450 and towed it back to my house. I sheared the intermediate shaft, blew up the passenger axle and the drivers axle was leaking grease so I replaced it too. So the white car is back on the road again after a VERY long day of pulling parts off the parts car and swapping them onto my car.
Berretta's are too short I think it has to be out of a W body.......I got a few leads on some spares oon W-body but if you find one Ike let me know I could always use a spare.
Ken
Wow, some serious damage if all that broke. Yeah, I would suggest not doing much racing until you get stronger axles or can magically prevent the wheel hop. If not you'll probably end up in the same boat as Kuntize was....snapping axles left and right :icon_mad:
Quote from: grandprixagain on August 17, 2008, 09:45:35 PM
nice find, glad to hear its back. the 282 w-bodys arent easy to come by, im always scouring the yards for them, Did you get anything else good off the car? I forgot to grab the firewall plate for my 5 speed swap, and the shifter is broke, if you could get either of these parts let me know! thanks Ken
I'll let you know but the trans and 5 speed swap parts have been claimed by another board member on this time.......but if I see a shifter/firewall plate at the yard anytime soon I'll grab it for you.
It is good to have her back only down for 2 days! Now I have to find a garage for the parts car before it gets towed!
I got really lucky someone just so happen to post the car on W-body in the FS section and I checked it out for the hell of it and it was only 40 miles away. Really got lucky this time, maybe not so lucky next time........
Strut blockers are in my future like the ones Jud used to have.
Ken