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OK, since I've heard that the stock .80 on the M24 can't flow verry well and max is about 15 and its spinning its tail off at that point. Then how about putting the turbine and compresor fins from a bigger turbo or an aftermarket one then modding our stock compresor and turbine housing to accept them by making the turbine and compresor holes bigger and porting the housing to flow better. Seems like this is what people and turbo companies do. I will need a turbo rebuild kit soon since my turbo smokes like a bar-b-cue when idling at a stop for a while. No its not the oil return line(checked and its clear and stright down). Maybe make a list of turbines that could fit into out compresor and turbine housing to make a kit for these turbos for cheap. Heck or make it your self to save hundreds.

If anyone has their TGP turbo apart could you tell me your turbines shafts diameter and lenth from the intake part to the exhoust part without the nuts on though. I think this is all I need to search for one. I have mine but its already going into the car.  Till I find a good substitude the turbo will stay on.

have you thought about just getting a different (T3) flange put on the crossover and using a T3 turbo from a 2.3 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe or another car?  T3's seem so much more common than the T25.

btw, what does 'M24' mean?  i know it is cast into the turbo, but someone was telling me that it was actually the nickel content of the housing?
joshua

slightly off topic, but the oil return hose can LOOK ok, but really be bad. If you take it off and look through it it may be ok, but if it bends a little or gets hot, the inside that is blistered will expand and block the oil return.

As far as bigger wheels, you can get about 20% more flow out of this turbo for a cost of $800. Not worth it if you ask me. You can either change the flange setups, or goto the t3/t2 hybrids that WORK well on other apps (haven't seen it done on the TGP yet) but as I posted somwhere else, can have drawbacks. None the less its a good upgrade to keep the stock flanges.

I thought the T3s from the eclipes/conquest/daytonas/saabs/turbocoupes/Murkers/SVO Mustangs were smaller than the TGPs. I know because I helped my older brother rebuild his engine and it had a .60 A/R(I think) size turbo on the Turbo coupe and there are others that are smaller on the Turbo coupe. We used a Murker turbo. The TGP has .80 A/R, or does A/R (area radius) don't tell how big and how much a turbo can flow? I know of a Ford pinto that used a 2.3 (140ci)turbo motor from a SVO mustang but had an upgrated T3/T4 hybrid that had a A/R of .83. and it flowed 3hp per cu. in..420hp.

What would the turbo on the TGP be called? I.E. a T2, T3, T4.

i'm just learning turbos myself, but i think comparing A/R ratios between different classes of turbos (T-25/T3/T4) is comparing apples & oranges.  the TGP turbo is a Garrett T-25 - aka T-too small.
joshua

I think malibuolds is right, comparing a/r ratios between turbo types (T3/T25) is like comparing apples to oranges.

Example...

The T3 I have for my Cutlass:
Compressor A/R is .63
Turbine A/R is .60

The stock TGP T25 is:
Compressor A/R is .80
Turbine A/R is .60

The T3 has much larger turbine and compressor wheels, even though the numbers are smaller or identical.  I remember reading somewhere that the A/R has to do with the restriction of airflow on the turbo.  Not sure if thats true though.  I'll have to do some research.

Jason

I got my older bros old used turbo. Its the one off a Murker 2.3l-needs rebuild (now he has a SVO turbo).  I put the TGP turbo next to it to compare and the dam TGP is dam small.  The Murker t3 turbo has the .60 compresor and .63 turbine.  I can have it rebuild as a t3/t4. I  can reangle the compresor,turbine housings and the center section like the TGPs', but the exhaust down pipe flinge will face up ward unless I fabricate one, and the whole crossover will need to be replace by a custom one. I don't know if its realy worth the try. I just want to put it on like it is without a down pipe (this means no hood-since the flinge will face upward) and a half ass X-over that I can make to test it.
I think A/R is just the percentage of its size that is used. The TGP .80 A/R might be the same actual size as the T3s .60 A/R. A T3s .80 a/r might = a TGPs 100 A/R. Well at least that is what I understood.

Turbo sizing is kinda complicated to explain, but its not a percentage. Its a ratio of the relationship of the cross sectional area of the scroll to the radius of from the center of the wheel to the center of the scroll. It plays an important part in how a turbo will respond. You can have two turbo's both with the same wheels but respond completely differently on a motor because of the A/R.

I've also heard that the A/R has to do with the restriction of the housings.   Like the TGP turbo is an .80 compressor and the Merkur (Ford T3) compressor is a .60.  So that one flows better...I think thats how it works.  But there is a lot more to it, like Chris said.  But to make matters simple, you can't compare the A/R numbers between any two different turbos (T-25 and T-3).

And the Merkur T3 you've got is the same one I'm putting on my 3100 / 3.1 Turbo project in my Cutlass.  It also came in a Ford Turbo Coupe, 85/86, among other rides.  I'm just waiting for the rebuild kit, I'm only rebuilding it to stock for now.  I'll probably run a external wastegate because of the weird DP situation.  I can get a flange and weld the piping for the DP/external wastegate easily.  But it will all have to be custom...no bold ons here.  The larger turbo works with 29lb Sy/Ty injectors and the 3100 heads/roller valvetrain and custom chip.  Should go pretty good with the 5 speed.

Jason

first in computing the best turbo for an engine you must know a couple of things.

engine size- 192 CID
engine type- 4 stroke
maximun speed- 5200 rpm
maximun boost pressure - well just say 14 psi
ambient temp- 70*F is a fair #
barometer- 29 in Hg. is also a fair #


1.)start by converting displacement to cubic feet:
192 cu in.
------------------    =    .111 cu ft.
1728 cu in./cu ft.


2.)next calculate the ideal volume flow through the engine:
.111 cu ft.       5200 rpm
------------  X  ------------   =   288.6 cfm
revolution             2      


3.)but that's at a volumetric efficiency of 100%, so reduce the VE to 80% for at least a closer guess:
288.9  X .8 =  230.88


4.)assuming a 65% compressor efficiency, calculate the density of the intake-manifold air(multipling by 2.03 converts psi to in. Hg.
                          manifold pressure abs
pressure ratio  =  ---------------------------
                          inlet pressure abs

                          14 psi + barometer
                     =   ------------------------
                                  barometer

                           (14 x 2.03) + 29.0
                     =   ----------------------
                                      29.0

                     =   1.98

5.)use a table to find Y for normal air and diatomic gases, which turns out to be .21


6.)ideal temp rise-AT(ideal): where A means delta, also note that 460*F is added to convert to degrees Rankine)
AT(ideal) = Y x T
because inlet temp is 70*F
AT(ideal) = .21 x (70*F + 460*F)

    = 111.3*F


7.)Actual temp rise-AT(actual):
                               AT(ideal)
AT(actual)  =  --------------------------
                     compressor efficiency

         111.3
    =  --------
           .65

    =  171*F

8.)then calculate the intake manifold temp
= compressor-inlet temp + AT(actual)
= 70*F + 171*F
= 241*F
air will not actually be this hot due to the cooling effect of fuel, plus it doesn't take into effect intercoolers


9.)Then calculate density ratio-DR:
          inlet temp        outlet pressure
DR  =  -------------  X  ------------------
          oulet temp        inlet pressure

          70 + 460            28.4  + 29.0
     =  -------------   X   ----------------
          241 + 460               29.0

          520       57.4
     =  -----  X  ------
          701       29.0

     =  1.47

10.)Under these conditions the:
compressor-inlet flow is = compressor-outlet flow X density ratio

                                  = 230.88 cfm X  1.47

                                  = 339.4 cfm


11.)now convert cfm to lb/min
lb/min = cfm  x  .070318
       
         = 339.4  x  .070318  

         = 23.87 lb/min

Now all you have to do is go back to step #2 and replace the rpm with a couple of different numbers.  After you map 2 or 3 different rpms, take those figures and compare them to turbo compressor maps.  Make sure that that all of the figures you mapped are in a good efficiency range on the compressor map you choose.  Please, take into account these are some very rough calculations on my part.  I'm sure glad that those Chem 1/2 classes came in handy somewhere :D

Sorry that it's hard to follow, but the BB didn't like my spacing.  If anyone wants I can convert it to HTML and post the site.  

Also, here's a link to some compressor maps to help track down a good match.
http://www.turboneticsinc.com/comp_maps/fig5.html

Josh got skills. Dam wish I knowen that. I'll check up on that though. Thanks man.

and here's the side by side I took .. yes the resolution sux.



SHE's so tinny. :o
The down pipe will face upward without any costom work on the t3.
But now I will see if I will need it for the future.

HA finally a comparo picture of a T25 and T3! I knew the T3 flange was bigger!  

There are wastegates available that can replace the elbow on the tbird turbo, then you can have a downpipe straight off the back, i think the are usually vband style fittings so a downpipe would be pretty easy.

My friend is into 2.3Ts...he has a '88 Turbocoupe(stick) so it has the IHI and not the T-3, but the exhaust manifold flange is the same.  He also has a '90 Ranger that he put a 2.3T into it and that thing is such a sleeper.  Anyways,  he always makes fun of my T-25, and from those pictures you can see why :( .  

Hey Chris A, do you have the compressor map for our T-2small? or do you know anyone that does have it?  I've looked all over the internet, but there are only a handful of T-25 compressor maps out there.

http://www.relentlessracing.com/images/closeup_swingvalve.jpg

was this the wastegate that you were talking about? $120 is the asking price on this site. relentlessracing(.)com. They have all sorts of stuff I need for the turbo should I do a swap with the rebuild kit for the t3.

Hey there, just signed up -- i'm swapping this motor into my cavalier, yet i was going to have a custom crossover pipe made because of the motor mount problem.  I was wondering if anyone has a picture of the motor mount out of the beretta in the above pictures.  I'm going hunting tomorrow -- this is EXACTLY what i needed to see the pictures of, and i have a feeling my car project will be done veryyyyyyyyy soon, and for a whole lot less money than i had anticipated.

-- Lee

Well, you might want to check this out.

http://www.turboz24.com

This guy ran like a 12 something quarter last time out, and the ECU wasn't even working right (it was only running on like 10 degrees total timing!).  This was at a low boost setting too!  I think he said the car will do 11's without breaking a sweat.

Jason

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1482131.jpg

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1482132.jpg

Were this the ones.

Curtis definitely knows his stuff, he's the one that guided me through making critical decisions about my motor.  He's just dissappointed i couldn't afford to finish it (I got laid off for 6 months, and uncle sam wasn't paying for the car to be finished)....

I was looking to spend somewhere around $600 for exhaustwork, but now that i've seen this Beretta mount, i'm going to find a damn beretta, steal the mount, and weld it on if i have to...  i need that mount, and i need it in my car.  I'm going out hunting, even though its 36 degrees, thers snow covering everything, and i really shouldn't.

Off to find a beretta... wish me luck, i think this is gonna save me a fortune right here.

BTW:  Did your stock TGP downpipe bolt up to your stock exhaust?

Oh yeah, by the way, the TGP motor used 22 lb fuel injectors stock, i think the ones in the 3.3 / 3.8 are both the same 27 lb, which will explain your real rich streak.  Try getting 3100 injectors out of a newer 3.1 liter enigne -- same deal as the TGP ones.  At least you got the TGP FPR, which is different than the stock.

-- Lee

Quote from: TurboGTUhttp://www.relentlessracing.com/images/closeup_swingvalve.jpg

was this the wastegate that you were talking about? $120 is the asking price on this site. relentlessracing(.)com. They have all sorts of stuff I need for the turbo should I do a swap with the rebuild kit for the t3.

yep!

Skalor: no i don't have one handy.

Okay, no luck today, here's what i need to know

1) are you guys familiar at all with the j-body platform / chasis?

I'm looking to sort of do the same thing that was done with the beretta to a cavalier, the main thing preventing me from putting the turbo in the stock location (besides ABS) is the darned engine mount -- if i could get this beretta mount and put it in place (modified or not) this would give me the ability to use a much less expensive (as i am still striving to get out of debt) alternative, to which i have 90% of all the parts, rather than 20% of all the parts..


Does anyone have the '93-96 application that this mount can be found on?  I'm bolting this up to the newer transmission on the cavalier (not the HM282, although its got the same casing, and same bolt pattern -- just has the hydraulic bearing in it rather than the clutch fork setup)...  So, what parts will i need from a beretta to convert this.  Anyone got any part numbers?

I'm so psyched (which is incredible, as the cars been parked for months without me even wanting to look at it)...

Please, help!!! :)

Here's what I did to the dp to fit on the Beretta to fit correctly on the car.
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1489471

I got my trans mount from a trans that was already out from someone taking the engine only on the berreta, later I went for the fender wall bracket from a corsica that had the engine and trans removed. Saves a lot of work looking for cars like this aready unbolted for you. I went to a pick your part self serv yard (Pick-n-pull) for thiese. YOu can go to a yard that has the trans removed and tell them to just sell you the brackets and mount for you so you won't have to do any removing. The bracket thats spot welded to the fender wall you will have to remove yourself with a chissel, hammer, sledge, and crow bar. Not a eazy task since you can't use power tools in this yard. :(

I don't know if it would work for the 5 speeds.

If it's spot welded, just bring a drill and a drill bit a little larger than the spot welds.  Drill in the center of the spot welds, and it should come off real easy.

Jason

Hrm...  I do have a mini cordless rotary tool kit, maybe i can use the carbide bits to cut through and stuff.  The guys at my yard are familiar with me, i practically spent a summer in there just looking at cars and taking shit apart and getting piece by piece for my convertible.. lol, so, i'm sure if i said "can i take a pickup with a generator and a few tools back there" they'd be like "yeah, just don't light the place up"

I already do have a generator, and my friends got a pickup...   i could always just try and get a N.O.S. one from GM, i just didn't know the application.

How does this bracket you took off the berretta's transmission mount onto your transmission?  Does it bolt to the casing, or does it bolt to the transmission its self.  I'm going to have to do some more research, but now that i can look for a corsica or beretta 5 speed in years 93+ (which is good, because my cars a '93, and the beretta has the same transmission if its a 5 speed) and steal the bracketry from that.   The best part about the junkyard is you don't have to care about anything more than the parts that you want.

I'm also wondering if this new mount has a rubber isolator on it, or if its solid.  I may just have to weld that mount solid, as i'm getting two other solid mounts.  (I'm gonna have it welded REAL good!)



-- Lee

Okay, that doesn't look like its gonna jive too well with my fenderwell area, my fenderwell goes a lot farther down closer to the subframe than i thought.  

I talked to Curtis Walker (http://www.turboz24.com/) about Rick Bolwell's car (Cavalier with a 3.8 s/c with a 5 speed), and in this application they used a W-body 5 speed mount , and fabbed a mounting plate

Does anyone here have a 5 speed W-body mount handy?  I figure if i can get this mount on there, i'll be in slightly better shape..

-- Lee

Now looking at Curtis site again, I looked at the part of where it says engine bay waiting for engine or something like that and the pic where he shows the intake pipe at the bottom of the car by the fender being made at the shop. That bracket looks to be intergrated with the fender. You could cut it where it sticks out to mount the beretta mount. I'll e-mail you on what I mean.

Yeah, thats what i'm wondering...  how this is all going to fit (or if its going to fit correctly in a j-body platform... the corsica was roughly related to your platform)...

If someone could get me one of those plates i'd love it. however, i'm going for more or less a removable solution.  i would have to weld a mounting plate to the subframe... and use a W-body mount so i'm told.

-- Lee
BTW:  My sites been down as well as e-mail, however, i just got it all back up a few minutes ago, so if you did send me mail, please re-e-mail it!

I went to the salvage yard today(no date today guys  :( ). I look at a Cavi exacly like yours (convertible,3.1,but had an auto). I looked at the mounts and they are like what the beretta had. I looked at another cavi with a 5spd. Z24 like curtis. I see that the braket mounts to the top. I've then saw that the 5spd almost comes out thrugh the fenderwall. That beretta mount won't work.

I did however looked at a Fiero with the 2.8 and 5spd. Those mounts look like they would work. They are connected to the enginecradle-prob the same as the w-body ones-didn't see any 5spd w-bodys today.  You could use those Fiero mounts and go from there if you haven't already done the exhoust.

Seeing that picture above reminds me of something.  You guys with ABS wanting to put the turbo in... there is a pretty good chance you can't use the stock TGP crossover and stock turbo location.  My Cutlass had that ABS and I had to switch back to the normal brakes because the turbo wouldn't fit.  That ABS master cylinder/valve assembly is way too big.  Unless your master cylinder is mounted farther away than the w body one...but it doesn't look like it.

Jason

Ha now thinking about my day at the yard.. I saw two T-bird turbo coupes with the ICI turbo. They look small and should work well if I do the twin turbo setup. But I still have plans for the T3 since it might be easier.

Me posting this late...yea..had a good date... 8) Hot chick customer from work anyone?

I'm planning on removing abs, and removing the stock mount.

I ordered a '90 G/P 5 speed mount, which goes where the 'dogbone' mount goes on my car.  my dads friend is going to weld a new mount in place..