Idling issues.. still

LukeZ34 · June 11, 2004, 04:52:42 PM

If you've been following my post on the w-body forums, then you know my problems. If not, let me spell them out here.

Drove the car to work a few weeks ago. It drove there just fine, no problem at all. When I left for lunch, the car started fine, and I started to drive away, held it in first gear since a stop sign was close. In this time, I turned the AC on, and I about went through the windshield. It bucked hard, so I pushed in the clutch, and it was idling terribly. So I shut the A/C off, and it still persisted. I limped the car home with it sputtering and parked it.
I checked the wires w/ a timing light for spark, come to find out, the middle coil is sparking erattically. I thought that was my cause of the problem, so I got 3 new coils, and ICM, installed those, problem was still there. So I crawl under the car, pull the crank sensor, which had been replaced 5 months prior to this. It looked fine, so I put it back in, started the car up, idled worse, and threw a code 33 (map sensor). Pulled the plenum, checked all of the injectors, all of them read 12.9-13.1 ohms, checked the vacuum lines under there. Then Pulled the spark plugs to check for damage. They looked fine, so I buttoned everything back up. Started it up, problem was still there.
Bought a new crank sensor today, and ordered a MAP sensor. Put the new sensor in, problem was still there. Got the timing light out again and checked all of the wires. The wire for cylinder #1 wasn't sparking. So I pulled the plug wire, inspected it, and went and bought a cheap $30 autolite plug set. Put those on, and the problem still persists.
The fuel filter looks like it's not that old at all (still shiney), fuel pump runs just fine.

I'm lost, irritated, and pissed that I'm spending all this money with nothing getting fixed. I've got a deadline of getting this damn thing running in a month... Any help is really appreciated.

god910 · June 11, 2004, 05:32:06 PM

Have you ran a scan on it yet? I'd have to wonder if the harness from the CPS might be damaged? Have you tried a different ECM? I'd go over the grounds in the engine bay as well. Just make sure it's running so that you can goto the strip. I NEED a timeslip. 8)

LukeZ34 · June 11, 2004, 06:10:18 PM

No scan yet.. If I were to build a aldl cable to interface with a laptop, can I use the scanning software to watch the car while it's running? I had some plans a while back to build an ALDL to serial cable, I need to find those again..

god910 · June 11, 2004, 08:53:00 PM

Yup, there are lots of them. Check the Links section of www.gmpcm.com Mick mentions Freescan alot, I personally know shit about it, but it's a start.

Jeff M · June 11, 2004, 08:56:03 PM

WELLLLL, some details :shock: 8) IF your problems have some initial relationship with the AC/Clutch then don't miss looking at it!!! There was some mention in a bulletin about the AC Clutch wire rubbing and shorting out, check this out. Now that I heard your crank sensor was 5 months old I will quite trying to talk you into a new one (and me waiting to hear this detail/only 5 months old!!). Glad you now know your injectors are good/will be good for a while, but I mentioned there was an easier way to check these then to take off the upper intake :? . If you KNOW you have a proven spark issue/problem then why worry about the fueling side :shock: ? And I agree for the 4th time to swap the ECM with a used/known good one, even whap it as it was also recommended. Grounds too, check them out, this and all you have done will eliminate future problems for quite some time, and even when you have another problem down the road, you will be much more literate at dealing with them, and in short order 8) !! Hate to sound mean but you're frustrating at least me by not taking these suggestions to heart and following up, many were easier to do than the ones you did :x , you listening boy :P :D

Jeff M

LukeZ34 · June 11, 2004, 09:24:52 PM

Yea, my memory isn't very good. I sat down today while typing that and tried to recall what happened that day. I remembered turning the A/C on and it started acting up.

What kind of ECM do I need? If it can be one from an automatic, and then I can just swap the chip in, I know where I can get one, but I'm afraid the price will be steep (like all the salvage yards here are).

Where's the AC Clutch wire at?

Jeff M · June 12, 2004, 12:41:05 AM

Well it?s not like I have not done this in the past/when I was young :oops: , but I have learned to make more notes over the years (got piles now/library size :lol: ), more so now since I work on multiple complex projects all the time. So you got no buds local that will let you borrow their ECMs? There should be no risk, and you only need it for a few minutes of engine running time, and you know theirs is a good/used one. There are a number of ECMs that will work, auto tranny car ECM will work with your setup long was you swap your chip, the under-hood version that we have can have these part numbers: 1227727, 16197128 and 1619260. A non-under-hood version that is the same has these part numbers: 1227730, 16196344 and 16198262. Many GM cars have these (credit for these numbers given to Ludis L!) 1990-92 2.5 L4 TBI (?W? body), 1988-89 2.8 V6 PFI (?W? body), 1989-93 3.1 V6 PFI (?W? body), 1990-91 5.7 V8 TPI (?Y? body), 1987 2.0 L4 TBI, 1988 2.0 L4 TBI, 1987-89 2.8 V6 PFI (exc. ?W? body), 1988-94 3.1 V6 PFI (exc. ?W? body), 1990-92 5.0 V8 TPI, 1990-92 5.7 V8 TPI (?F? body).

As for the AC Clutch Wire?..um on the AC Compressor :lol: :P No seriously there is a connector down just under and on the AC body, behind the serpentine belt pulley, 2 wire with a unique connector that has 2 tabs to pull and release, one tab on each side of the connector body, tricky to pull off (couple of small screw drivers) but first just tracking the location this wire runs in is a start, looking for the wire loom pierced and/or wires exposed maybe rubbing on something, or pinched. THEN do unplug it and pull it out to clear anything around it and start the car to see what happens.

Got to sign off, have 2 weddings to go to tomorrow/today now, going to be a long ass day!

Good luck.

Jeff M

LukeZ34 · June 13, 2004, 04:10:17 PM

Put the new MAP sensor on, didn't change anything.
I found the 2 Compressor harnesses. One was red, and the other was green. I inspected them, checked out what wire loom I could see, and everything looked alright. I unplugged them, started the car, and the problem was still there. So I plugged them back in, started the car again, and checked the wires witht he timing light again. Now I have 2 cylinders not firing. Looking down to the coils from above, it's the outer 2 plugs that aren't firing (1 and 5).

I took the ECM out of it's mount today and reseated the chip. I'm gonna see if I can get the ECM from my brothers 91 Cutlass to try out. I'll report back after I try that.

Jeff M · June 13, 2004, 04:43:42 PM

Quote from: LukeZ34Put the new MAP sensor on, didn't change anything.
I found the 2 Compressor harnesses. One was red, and the other was green. I inspected them, checked out what wire loom I could see, and everything looked alright. I unplugged them, started the car, and the problem was still there. So I plugged them back in, started the car again, and checked the wires witht he timing light again. Now I have 2 cylinders not firing. Looking down to the coils from above, it's the outer 2 plugs that aren't firing (1 and 5).

I took the ECM out of it's mount today and reseated the chip. I'm gonna see if I can get the ECM from my brothers 91 Cutlass to try out. I'll report back after I try that.

Well, need to slow down (turbo hot rod :lol: ) and read this again:

Quote from: jeff M2 wire with a unique connector that has 2 tabs to pull and release

It states a 2 wire connector, that is ?connector? in the singular, with 2 wires, the one just behind the serpentine belt pulley of the compressor, not the connectors behind the compressor body :roll: :) It also has the 2 tabs (your other ones have one push tab) to open and to release the connector for inspection, so hurry up and test it :lol:

It it tests out fine, (don't skimp checking this out) then I really like hearing the ECM being swapped, though such odd ignition problems are more the (new) ign module.

Jeff M

LukeZ34 · June 13, 2004, 07:55:21 PM

I found the connector for the clutch, both it and the wires looked fine. No problems there. I unplugged it and there was no change.
I also pulled the ECM from my brothers cutlass and tried it, and unfortunatly, there was no change there either.

I think I'm going to pull the coils off again and inspect them. I wanted to relocate them, but didn't when I had them off earlier because I didn't have wires long enough for a couple of the plugs. I was going to put them behind the beauty cover on the passenger side. I've got a mount fabbed up already, but I need to know the best/acceptable way to lengthen the harnesses that plug in to the ICM. Can I simply just pull back the looming, cut the harness off (leaving a few inches of wire for splicing), extend the cables, and then solder and heatshrink the connections? That seems like the reasonable thing to do, but I wanted to check first.

Any more ideas? :lol:

Jeff M · June 13, 2004, 08:48:15 PM

Quote from: LukeZ34I found the connector for the clutch, both it and the wires looked fine. No problems there. I unplugged it and there was no change.
I also pulled the ECM from my brothers cutlass and tried it, and unfortunatly, there was no change there either.

I think I'm going to pull the coils off again and inspect them. I wanted to relocate them, but didn't when I had them off earlier because I didn't have wires long enough for a couple of the plugs. I was going to put them behind the beauty cover on the passenger side. I've got a mount fabbed up already, but I need to know the best/acceptable way to lengthen the harnesses that plug in to the ICM. Can I simply just pull back the looming, cut the harness off (leaving a few inches of wire for splicing), extend the cables, and then solder and heatshrink the connections? That seems like the reasonable thing to do, but I wanted to check first.

Any more ideas? :lol:

Yea, quit screwing around wasting time and thought doing custom work and figure this out so I can get back to other things :lol: Screw the coils too, if your problem keeps moving then swap your buddies ignition module, and when doing this check your connections (a 3 connectors), not just a beauty check I mean really look (like you did at the ECM connections :wink: ) for any bare or lose wires and/or bent pins, bad female connectors too, get vicious with this, like you want to find where the problem is hiding! :twisted: Back on the AC wire, and I said this before, follow the wire out to make sure it is not getting pinched or has rubbed against something elsewhere other than just at the AC!!

Jeff M

LukeZ34 · June 21, 2004, 08:13:37 PM

Just started messing around with it again.. Went through and double checked all of the wires, traced them as far as I could and didn't find any problems.
Had to recharge the battery, went to advance, and bought new plugs (R42LTS), replaced them, and actually got the car to start again. The day before I made an ALDL to serial cable so I could hook my laptop up to the car and run log some runs.
I have 3 scans made in Datamaster if anyone wants them.. I'm not exactly sure how to read them (though I'd love to learn), but I figured someone here could at least look at it. I'll post them here in a little bit..

Edit, nevermind, only 2 of them, one was corrupt. Saved directly from Datamaster.
http://www.lukez34.com/hostedpics/tgp/tgp2.uni
http://www.lukez34.com/hostedpics/tgp/tgp23.uni

If there is any specific program you want me to use, let me know. As long as it will run on a P120, it's good.. :)

LukeZ34 · June 23, 2004, 12:53:45 AM

Well.. with the help of Brian89gp (some may know him from other forums), he reviewed the datamaster files, and told me that the TPS sensor is maxxed out at 100%. Which is causing excess fuel to be dumped in. This is also causing the O2 to read extremely rich, hence the extreme amounts of smoke/gas smell coming from the car.
That's the one thing I haven't touched, and it makes damn good sense too. Gonna replace that tomorrow, see if that does the trick.

turby · June 23, 2004, 07:02:02 AM

Hope that fixes it. 8)

TGPilot · June 23, 2004, 08:38:02 AM

Quote from: LukeZ34Well.. with the help of Brian89gp (some may know him from other forums), he reviewed the datamaster files, and told me that the TPS sensor is maxxed out at 100%. Which is causing excess fuel to be dumped in. This is also causing the O2 to read extremely rich, hence the extreme amounts of smoke/gas smell coming from the car.
That's the one thing I haven't touched, and it makes damn good sense too. Gonna replace that tomorrow, see if that does the trick.

Shit that TPS is less than a 2 years old!! :shock: I truly hope this doesn't fix the problem and you are so fed up with the car you want to sell it back to me!! Just kidding!!! 8) or am I??? :twisted:

Idling issues.. still

TGPilot