4t60 vs 3t40 VS 4t65

[TurboGTU]

Well I just took apart my first 4t60..(insert cheere here). I grabed it from a junk yard for a meare $20 just to see its workings. THe trans looked to be rebuild. It has fried the 2nd clutch pack. Input pack and 3rd looked good. Except input was beeign eaten away on the teeth by the sprag. Not enough cluchpack or weak cluch metal. I blame 2nd pack beeing fried bacause whomeever rebuilt the trans didn't install the teflon pump shaft seal correctly and when put into the tranny..it pinched and tore..making it have low oil pressure. 2nd clutch pack engages in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It looked to have a new 4th hub..but it was also eaten away at by the 4th clutch. That thing is sharp...no wonder 4th hubs get junked. The size of the 4th clutch can only hold about 50-70hp tops. And you wanto put 200-280hp though it  :icon_eek:. Im sure if theres 2 frictions in there...then you can push maybe 100-140 hp in 4th. Maybe go brass in 4th? with hardened 4th hub.

THe other thing I saw was the reaction shell was beeing nicked and chowed by the reaction carrier. Not too bad at the 2nd clutch pack ariea. It has to do with the different metal hardness and the shell expanding when under load. The drive sproket plastic bearing was unevenly worn out between the 2nd pack. Prob do to when 2nd fried and overheated or bad install hight on the clutches or wrong bearing placement. Both 3rd and 1-2 band look good. I forgot what accumulator it is..but the largets accumulator behind the channel plate was worn between the pin. You could see daylight between the pin and piston. Seemed to side load and leaked fuid. The differental lube pipe hose was about to let go. The whole channel plate was coverned in suit from friction meterial. Meanning it had a bad oil filter/not installed right or uncleaned oil cooler and lines. Pump spines on the pump side looked like they were going into retirement. Pump has too much weare...prob due to pressure loss/oil starvation.

Well how do I compare this tranny to the 3t40. About the only thing going for the 4t60 is its planetary gears. Nothing else. The 3t40 has stamped steel planets much like the 200r4 while the 4t60 has a cast unit. The 4t60 has too much rotating mass compared to the 3t40. 4th is useless since its only for coasting or pegging it on the highway. Leave it in D and she'll live longer..except the early TGP trans which kicks in 4th at WOT past 120- give or take. Thinking of stealing the planets for a 3t40 build.

Now how would I improve the 4t60. Well for starters...have the best hard parts bougt...and then send them get hardened. On the reaction shell...I was thinging of welding support beams on the outside and on the spine part weld and fill the dips and then weld a ring on the outside to keep it from expanding. You can do the same for the cluch pack carriers. And then have them harddened. I would/am looking at the sparag/cluch beeing replaced by 4t65 diode type sprags welded and having the opropriate clutches for it. The only cluch pack I would put in blue plates is the 2nd. The rest could get away with reds or high statics. If you must..4th only with brass...but won't last<--find me someone who would make brass clutches though  :icon_eek:. . Got to look at the Raybesto log for some.

If your thinking im doing a pipe dream...I think your dreaming. It can be done/will be. Hey..I could build you a thm350 with a 700r4 or 4l65-e 5gear rear planet set for a good steep 1st gear and closer 2nd.

I'll take some pic latter on on the carnage. And then the Vs the 3t40 parts.

Just waiting on a final deal on a lot Im buying...then the build begins.

[TGPilot]

Get on it man....Jud needs something to hold his T3076 without worry! ;)

[z284pwr]

X2, chop chop, I'm really looking at finding some good parts for a rebuild....

Now the question, difference between a regular 4T60 and an HD.....just need to find an HD to tear apart to see the differences there

[TurboGTU]

Well my unit seems to be a early unit from 84-88 since it only has 5 cluches in 2nd and 1 4th clutch. My unit was rebuilt..and it might not be the correct cluch pack though. ID tag is nowhere to be found. It has one sided 3rd clutches though.

I know for sure the TGP tranny has a turbo valvebody. But even then...the varry from early TGP to late TSTE. I have the TGP still but I don't know if they replace tgp parts for normal ones when NitroDave had it rebuilt.



The pump shaft seal is torn from bad installment.


Drive sproket thrust bearing is sideloaded and worn out.


1-2 accumulator sees daylight. I had originally confuesed it for a channel plate acucmulator..but its the bottom 1-2 unit.


4th hub is chewed by the 4th clutch.


Input clutches with enlaged teeth.


Reaction shell damage.


2nd clutch pack roasted.

Hmm..with the pump shaft seal torn..oil leaked the converter or pump...then we have the 1-2 accumulator leaking pressure, having the weaker 5 clutch pack in 2nd and while in 3rd or in 4th gear with TCC locked..the pump pressure droped in cruse (1400-3000 rpm). Sounds like a good recipie for carnage .

Heres the Vs the 3t40


The input planets are closer together and the reaction planets are away form each other. 440-t4 on left, 3t40 right.


The 440 planets are just better made. They are taller than the 3t40 units.


The reaction shaft/sun gear from the 3t40 is better than the 440. But the 440 input sungear is better than the 3t40. 3t40 parts are the rusty ones. Input on left, reaction on right.


Say it in't so  :icon_frown: . The 440 sprag/roller clutch assy. is small compared to the 3t40 roller clutch.


Well its tall enough..but the innerds are still shorter and its over all smaller than the 3t40.


Drive sprokets. 440 on left, 3t40 on right.


The 440 and 3t40 seem to share the same input drive shaft but have different cast gear.

The 440 hadles more engine torque I guess due to the drive sproket. BUT the 3t40 handles more gearbox torque due to the roller clutch. I yet to heare any complints of broken planets on the 3t40 or roller clutch fail. So I guess the 3t40 wins. The 3t40s down fall is its crappy Band/ 3rd cluch hydrolic setup. 2nd band is applied by a servo with no return spring. Only the 3rd cluch engagement will unseat the servo. The band tends to drag sometimes in 3rd..making it fry up and taking 3rd along with it. Its not a major problem in 1st though. I guess GM wanted the trans shop something to work on instead of making it too reliable.

[sleeperred90tgp]

Get on it man....Jud needs something to hold his T3076 without worry! ;)

Amen to that :icon_biggrin: Yea I am dying to utilize these 36# injectors. Think my sprag is going cause I sometimes get a chatter in first just normal driving and on the strip it only takes about 1/2 hour to shift from second to third. :icon_sad: Normal driving I have to wind it out a little in second or third will slip.

Third gear slipping to the point it wouldn't pull has been my main problem.  I am on the 4th tranny. The sprag and the  third clutch pack seem to be my only problems.

Keep up the good work Turbo. Look forward to more info. When can I bring my transmission over. :laugh:

Jud

[flybynite]

Glad to see some intrest in beefing up an auto for the TGP. :icon_biggrin: I lost my 3rd tranny last night. :icon_twisted: Tis gettin kinda expensive to play with the TGP.

Yea I am dying to utilize these 36# injectors.

Jud I'm runnin 36ers on a slightly modded TGP now(stock turbo)You will need more with that hair dryer you got.Later...Adam

[mfewtrail]

Leave it in D and she'll live longer. .

Unless you have one of the earliest TGP transaxles, you don't have to worry about 4th gear holding up to the power level we make. I believe only the very early TGP's were equipped with a transaxle that would engage 4th gear at WOT(this is where those claims of 150mph top speed runs came from). I know of at least three different code/part numbers for our "4T60 HD," so there were some revisions made throughout the production run of our cars. My '90 TGP that was built in late '89 will kick down to 3rd gear at a pretty light throttle level and it stays there. I've only had the car up to 120mph so I haven't tested the "128mph" or whatever it is that we're supposedly limited to in 3rd.

EDIT: It'd probably be wise to avoid top speed runs at lower throttle inputs to get you into 4th gear too.. :laugh:

[sleeperred90tgp]

128 MPH, I don?t think I have the balls to do that anymore  :nono: so I won?t worry about burning up 4th gear. First time this car went over 100 was at the drag strip. 

Matt, didn?t the later trannys have 2 clutches in the TC for 4th gear. Thought I read that some where :icon_question:

Oh the serial number on your block is on the web on the block behind the hose clamp for the turbo return. Pretty hard to see.

Jud

[TurboGTU]

Well I just got a 97 Olds 4t65-e and gut the crap out of it. I don't know why 4t60-e guys just don't wire the thing for thier cars. IT seems soo dam simple. All the 4t65 has is some piece of crap called a pressure manifold which is a piece of plastic with buttons on the valve body side. THe pressure pushes those buttons to tell the PCM what the tranny is doing and if its doing what it wants. The other piece of crap is a speed sensor and relucture wheel on the input sprocket. THe rest of the stuff look like typical 4t60-e parts. A-shift slinoid (1-2), B-shift selinoid (2-3), TCC selinoid, temp sensor and, something called the PWM/TCC selinoid. Guess thats like the downshift selinod or something  :icon_question: . Pre 95 guys are fub out of luck. Those E trannies have different setups it's hard to tell what they have. If you have 95+..your good. Toss the vacume modulator in the trash I guess since 65-e don't have them. PWM/TCC stradigy I guess.

OK On with the show...


4th clutch hub is Cast instead of stamped steel. Nicks but not trashed. THis unit has two clutches in 4th...Seems like 150 hp at most still but cltuches won't stick,strip hub.


Dual chain 65-e input shaft/sproket Vs 440/4t60 Single chain and sproket. Im liking that Level Ten inputshaft for our 4t60s.


65-e dual chain sproket Vs 60. 65 is a tad longer...but they interchange...might need spacers for 60 to work on 65. 94+ 60-es had updated chain and sprokets to quiet down the chain and to help reduce chain streatch. So 95+ 60-e chain and sproket setups could be a upgrade to the TGP trans.


Can you tell which is which? 
Well the left one is the 65 and the 60 is on right. Sometime in 94 the 60s got a sprag clutch on the 3rd clutch pack. All 4t60s and early 60-e's had Roller clurches. THise tend to drag and heat up and fail when you need them most at the strip (Jud)or going back home to get you some  ;) (not me  :icon_frown:  :laugh:   .  THe new ones have oil holes too to help lube the units. What's the difference between a sprag and a roller clutch. A roller clutch is a one way clutch which locks one way by making the roller bearings jam as they try to squize into the high step of the outer race. They free wheel when the bearings roll into the pockets of the outer race, perfect example is the picture of the 3t40 roller clutch which I mistakenly named a sprag. A sprag is a Dog bone type clutch. The bearings are egged shaped or dogbone shaped. They jam up one way as they try to roll and free wheel the other way via the springs holding them from rolling. This is a much heavier duty unit and runs cooler. The roller clutch heats up because the sprigns in the pockets push the bearing up the ramp to keep them ready for when its asked to work. THis strips the bearing of oil and weares at the inner race.


But heres the BIG PLUS..JUD your listening?


Since the units seem to interchange...WE CAN upgrade to new Diode type sprags from newer 65-es :icon_exclaim:. Diode type is like the setup in your 1/2 in rachet or in a freesyle cluch in a bike. Thise are updates to the new 65-es'. YOu need the clutch pack for that model. Wait theres more...hold on.


This is GM were talking about here isn't it...dam..thier nifty little suckers to try and reuse old parts and mesurements.
Left is the 60s and right is the 65s. Just look at how much better the reaction shell is on the 65. The driven sproket support is about the same and the clutch pack carriers and driven shell is almost like the 60s but better desighned.



On my pre 88 unit....it seems to have the driven sproket support lube hole on the side from the case while the 65 has it comming from the channel plate.  THe hole I'm talking about is at the outermost left on both untis. The 60 doen't have a hole..just a bung for a bolt whiel the 65 has a cavity and a hole. THOUGH...my rebuild book has a picture of a 4t60 that has the same holes as the 65s. Maybe the TGP has thise holes.
The 4th clutch steels interchange on both units. BUTTT>


THe 4th clutch apply piston sits higher on the 65 e since the 4th hub is taller than the 60 flimzy unit.


OK..heres my plans: GUT the 65 and 60...DONE, Put the 65 guts in the 60 from the 4th clutch to the input carrier to final drive shaft going into the final drive sproket.. SINCE we don't have a foward band and 1-2 roller clutch, I'll see if I can use 60s or weld the 65s parts between the input carieer and the final drive assy to work with the 1-2 band. Also..since the 4th hub is taller and cutting just won't work...I'll have to use the flimzy 60 unit. I'll see if I can really use the 60's (later 89-98) driven sproket suppot carrier since the 60 4th hub won't work with the 65 unti and the 65 hub won't work on the 60 unit. I'll try if I Can make it work with all 65 parts..but that 4th gear does't seem worth the effort. Maybe just heat treat the new hub.
65e-HD final drive carreir won't work on the 60s case since it seems too lage to fit..maybe im wrong..I don't have a HD to tell...its off a N/A 3800. Mabe see if something can be done with the stock diff like roller bearing on the pinoin gears and a bolt on the pinon shaft instead of a roll pin and shim the hell out of the side gear to get a LSD feel or something  :icon_exclaim:
THE BIG plus is ...BLUE PLATE SPECIALS for US  :icon_twisted:.

Caint wait to get at it again this week and use a test on the GTU or someone here  ;) locally.


I wait NO MORE. Its game time!  :icon_mrgreen:  :icon_rolleyes:

[sleeperred90tgp]

You better believe I?m listening, I'm an old dog but I live new tricks.:laugh: probly read it 5 times. Keep it up. :icon_razz:

So to summarize 3rd gear.

65es clutch drum and clutch pack with blue plate clutches.(I think I already have that with plain clutches)

65es Diode sprag in place of the roller clutch. Don?t know what I have I think it?s the 32 element roller.

I can produce a shudder going into 3rd gear under medium throttle. I think that is a  problem with the sprag. :icon_question:  Everything works fine at WOT from a dead stop foot braked to 2200 RPM except 3rd gear engagement takes forever but it?s pulling all the time. I cannot accelerate in third with other than very light throttle or it will slip. (clutches or apply pressure)  :icon_question: To hit passing gear forget it, gave up trying along time ago. It will just let the motor wind up with no forward movement.

When are you going to get to the input sprag. That?s my other biggest problem but only applies with street driving (light to medium throttle).

I would consider being a Guinea pig but I don't have the facilities to get the tranny out.

Jud

[TurboGTU]

Hey..thanks for the props  :icon_wink:. Im suprised myself to find this out. I thought they were suppose to be compleately different....guess not. Its a 60-e with better parts and with more gizmos.

You can find a 4t65-e from 97+ 3800,3*00 cars. Some seem to favor the 98+65-e units for its simple adaptation to becoming a HD unit.. The HD units come only in the Supercharged 3800s. YOu can tell a 4t60-e from a 4t65-e by the electrical plug location. The 65-e has it on top of the bell housing ariea while the 60 has them on the starter ariea. 65-e doesn't have a vacume modulator.  GTPs are running 14'-12 with a stock tranny and little PCM mods. With race parts...thise trans motivate GTPs into the 12-10s.

Jud...everything your telling me sounds like a line pressure problem(modulator, govenor, pump). Have you connected a 0-300psi oil pressure guage to the trans to monitor it? The 3rd gear sound like the roller clutch though. Is the light medium light cruze problem in 1st only or 2nd and 3rd also? Does it do it in reverse also? Only when cold or up in temp..or all the time?

Trans will likely go into the GTU as when I was replacing the oil...I saw bits of teeth from gears.. :icon_eek: .

Ok. I did more reasearch and see that the -E tranny Foward band and 1-2 roller clutch replace the 1-2 band and drum from the 440. THe E trans still has a 1-2 band ..but is a Manual 1-2 band...which is indicating to me that it only works in low range gears when shifted in 1st or 2nd in the shifter. It helps hold the drum/planets from moving along with the forward band.  ITS like having the 440s drum enlaged and putting a wider band to hold better in 1st and second gear for higher loads/more torque capacity. THats my understanding.

This is how the trans work.
1st gear is engaged by the 1st gear (input) clutch pack and the input sprag holding. 1-2 band/s engaged and 1-2 roller clutch holding(-E).
2nd gear is engaged by the 2nd (intermediate) clutch pack, making the input sprag over run. 1-2 band/s engaged & 1-2 roller clutch holding.
3rd gear is engaged by the 2nd clutch pack, and the 3rd (direct) pack.  3rd roller clutch (Sprag late -E) holding. No band, no input clutch. Or 1-2 roller clutch over run.
4th gear is engaged by the 2nd pack, 3rd pack, and 4th pack. 3rd roller clutch/sprag over running.
Reverse gear is engaged by Reverse band, input clutch, input sprag holding.


I've been able to use the 440 reaction carrier drum with the 65-e planets. This means I can use the 65e clutch packs along with the shell and gears. You might say...how about the better band setup on the 60-65e for the 440?....FOR WHAT?...Have you all fried the 1-2 band? Raybestos has a better stong band than the Jap or relined units. ALto makes a red or kevlar band too.

What I have now is a stronger sunshell setup, better packs, and able to use blue plates.

I'll see what they did to the 2nd pack latter. I know the teeth are diffent than the 440s.

[TurboGTU]

4T60-E (M13):
Max. Engine Torque Rating:
280 lb-ft


4T65-E (M15, MN3, MN7, MD7):
Maximum Engine Torque:
280 lb (380 Nm)
Maximum Gearbox Torque:
400 lb (544 Nm)

Here are some comparisons of ratings:

                                               |--------Maximum-------|
                                     Engine   Gearbox   Gross         Torque      Overall
Transmi       Weight  Torque    Torque    Veh. Wt.     Conv. Dia. 
   Model           (lbs.)    (lb/ft)      (lb/ft)        (lbs)            (inches)             


3T40               161       200         416        5100     9.64
4T60)              195       235         369        5181     9.64
4T60-E            203       280        390        6400      9.64
4T65-E            214       285        400        6400      9.64/10.16
4T80-E            295       305        461        6800      10.43

With the Level 10/Intense parts...we'll be rocking!
Jud...I wouild think the 03+ 65-e diode sprag is setup like that for both the 3rd and input since input was already a sprag setup.
Heres what Intense had to say to someone about a stock 65-e weak points.
Assuming your tranny is all stock, I can think of four possibilities.
Here they are in order of likelihood, along with the official betting odds for each:

1) input shaft - 2:1
2) input sprag - 5:1
3) torque converter - 6:1
4) drive chain - 12:1

The input shaft most often breaks after you install a shift kit, and usually on the 1-2 shift.
The input sprag most often breaks during a nice burnout.
The torque converter usually breaks slowly - your car will still move sometimes, but it gets worse gradually.
And the drive chain hardly ever breaks, unless something else breaks first.

400 dalily hp can be had with this setup if you use the Level 10/Intense parts. WE already have the better chain though. INtense has some nice converters too because I seem to see people compalin about broken converters after major mods.
ONe of the weak links I saw on the differential was the shaft gears and the side pinion gears on the 440. I assume the TGP trans has the HD gears. THe 3t40 diff had the better gears like the 65-e had. My 3t40 was from a 94. Difference between the 65-e and the HD units is the differential. THe HD is bigger and has its own carrier case and output shaft that cain't share with the non-HD unit. Swap those part into a non-HD and it will become a HD.  If your 440 has the smaller gears, use the 65 units with the modded Parking Paw assym., This will give you a "gas saver" gear but will wistand almost anything. Change the Chain/sproket assy to get the gears back to "drag/tow" mode. YOu can prob buy the assy with the steeper gears though.


Thise are from the 65...the 94 3t40s are simmilar...but 440 I have has those gears smaller.


BOth the 65 and my 94 3t40 have the same carrier # 8661100, just the final ratio was different on both. The 440 had another number I coun't make out.


IF the HD diff fits...you will need the diff ring gear/parking paw assym due to the diff pinoin gears cut/desighn. YOU will need to cut the drum support to the 440s size and install the bearing lower in the same location as the 440s. But I highly doubt it(differential) might fit.
65e left...440 right.


This is what I found in the oil pan of the 3t40. NOT GOOD. I havn't got any gear grinding..but I won't wait till it strands me.

[Jeff M]

Hey..thanks for the props  :icon_wink:. Im suprised myself to find this out. I thought they were suppose to be compleately different....guess not. Its a 60-e with better parts and with more gizmos.

(Also cleaned down to the facts, per request? :icon_neutral:)

You deserve more than that, this is the first time I have seen someone other than me or a tranny shop get that deep into these silly trannies, and talk about it this way, not many into these trannies but there are many wanting it to be so :icon_biggrin: nice research!  :thumb:

One of the key differences is the differential case and gears, which are unique and hardened for longevity/others are not!  There have been no reported failures of these, and with the excess left in GM's coffers, the rest of the inventory was used on the 1995 Lumina Z34 (boy its great when the greedy go silent :icon_lol:) but there is rumor that they were also used on the F7 tranny.  Just once someone did not use our differential in their tranny and with devastating results, big hole in the side of their tranny case :icon_eek:.  Also the washers for the gears are steel instead of the typical bronze so this is another benefit of our setup, though do enough one-wheel burn-outs around a turn and even these steel washers will go bye-bye, and you will no longer have 2 wheels spinning/or putting the power down with a straight-line take-off  :icon_cry: and is often seen when a car spins wildly in 2nd gear on a straight-line take off, with just one tire  :icon_redface:.

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

:icon_redface: Thanks Jeff.

I haven't even got to the valve body yet..nor do I plan to. Things like line pressure for each pack so it won't cone or brake the packs if its too diffrent or too low in pressure. I'll find that out myself and adjust accordingly for MY trans.  I won't know what to do to those..nor do I care. I got mines...get yours  :icon_wink: .


Well this might be the last thing I post about this as I need to put it together to see how it works out.


Here you can see that the 2nd clutch pack is WAY better than the 440s. 65e steel and friction on bottom...440 steel and FRIED friction on top.

I did a double take on the turbine input shaft. The 65es is longer. I haven't checked to see it its just the tq conv support that longer or if its the bearing on back thats sits back way more. But 440 pump shaft won't protrude as much...meaning you need a longer pump shaft..or you fab out of luck..look elsewhere for stronger inputshaft. I have to get mine sent to get hardened or just live with it.

I need to find another 4t60 case and driven sprocket support as the unit I have doesn't have the bosses for the trans support bracket where the turbo sits on. Either that..or see IF the 4t60-es alum side pan from a beretta will fit on my 440 with grinding off/ welding the bolts for the aria around the channel plate to fit  it.

When I take off my 3t40...if I find that its just my differential sun gear thats going ..then I'll install blue plates for the input and direct clutch packs as the 60-65e units fit. That way, I have the TGP trans ready for 12sec blasts.  :icon_twisted:

Oh well. Now comes the hard part. $  :laugh: .

[Jeff M]

You are right, valve body was the worst, and no aftermarket kit did much good, you could always get a good 2nd gear shift but that was it, the more that was done to help get 3rd firmer/like 2nd, the firmer (TOO FIRM) 2nd gear got.

Jeff M