i got my Turbo Cutlass tuned at Kenny's shop yesterday and OMG...what a difference!! :icon_biggrin:
i had previously dyno'd 227whp & 325wtq at DynoPros's in Denver (a Dynojet machine). those #s were done using a MBC set at ~12psi. Kenny has a DynoDynamics machine so the #s aren't directly comparable, but the Rocky Mountain Club GP guys have done comparisons on many of their cars (on the same day) and came to the conclusion that the uncorrected #s are between 38-40% off. my corrected whp # for altitude after Kenny's tune was 205whp. using another 24% correction (39% correction total) to account for the difference between the Dynojet at DynoPro's and the DynoDynamics machine at KAZ Motorsports - 254.2whp & 359.6wtq.
the only diffrences to the car since the 1st dyno runs a little over a year ago (besides the obvious chip tuning Kenny did):
- i added Magnecor KV-85 spark plug wires
- i added dual outlet exhaust from my old Turbo STE. this probably hurt my #s since the mufflers are REALLY old and rusty/clogged stockers. when i dyno'd at DynoPro's i was using single outlet exhaust but with a straight through glasspack which i think probably flowed alot better than what i have now.
- i deleted EGR but i doubt that really matters as far as #s go.
- i ditched the MBC and used the TGP wastegate solenoid set to 14psi in the chip (i think....)
my baseline run was using the chip i got from god910 (Jay) which Kenny looked at and basically proved it was a nothing but a Jeff M Top Gun chip with the only modification done by Jay was setting a manual trans flag. also, the baseline run at KAZ Motorsports (not to be confused with the DynoPro's #s) was done using my MBC but i'm not sure what the boost level was due to my Autometer mechanical boost gauge. it was reading almost 3psi with the key-on-engine-off :icon_confused: the day before the dyno and showing 10psi max boost. so i think the baseline run was done with around 7-8psi? maybe Kenny can look up the actual baseline boost level using the MAP voltage as a reference? regardless, i gained almost 30whp & 35 ft/lbs to the wheels just going from a Jeff M Top Gun chip to Kenny's tune :icon_biggrin: of course, Kenny's tune was done specifically for MY car whereas Jeff M's Top Gun chip is more of a generic aftermarket TGP chip.
anyways, the car runs soooooo much better now! the bucking is almost gone complelely - there is still a little but i think that is a combination of slightly leaking injector(s) and just the normal subtle bucking that manual transmission cars can have.
most noticeable improvements by far - every gear is more useable.
- 1st & 2nd gear - no more bucking and definately more traction. i'm not using the MBC anymore....finally using the TGP wastegate solenoid. the TGP T25 spools so fast as it the MBC made it spool just toooo fast resulting in NO traction in 1st or and hardly any in 2nd gear.
- 3rd gear pulls harder, no bucking there at all
- never really did have bucking problems in 4th & 5th, BUT those gears used to be worthless! the car would turn into a a total dog after i got into 4th. as it is now it's a night and day difference. in 4th gear the car will HAUL ASS right up to 100mph like nothing before. hell i can leave it in 5th and get up to 100mph pretty damn quick now! i haven't been past ~100mph yet.
- OVERALL - the car is soooo much smoother to drive. power isn't 'explosive' like it was with the MBC and that means no wasted power spinning the tires. my oil pressure was slightly higher than it was on the way down and i wondered if it was because of running so rich before was washing the cylinder walls with gasoline? maybe the rings are just sealing better now? check out the A/F graph that was done with the Jeff M chip when i dyno'd at DynoPros - http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/dyno1.jpg - sub 10:1 A/F as soon as it spooled up!! jeeez!!! i think the A/F is now around 12:1
as for gas mileage. this is kind of a hard comparison because of the windy conditions that existed on the way home that weren't there on the way down to Colorado.
on the way there, before the tune, no wind:
Gillette-to-Cheyenne Wyoming - 242 miles & used 9.95 gallons of gas. that's 24.3mpg! ugh!
on the way home, after Kenny's tune, fighting a HEAVY crosswind between Cheyenne & Douglas, WY (over half the trip):
242 miles, used 8.875 gallons of gas. that's 27.3mpg!
if i didn't have 150lbs of tools and other stuff in the car, no wind, and my rear wheel alignment was on i have no doubts this car would be getting 31+ mpg on the highway now. not bad at all for a 240,000 mile engine that's never been rebuilt and is putting down 254whp & 360wtq! the GM employee that assembled my LH0 16 years ago must have done a damn good job :thumb: fwiw, i'm turning about 2600 RPM @ 75mph in 5th gear.
anyways, i'm very very happy with the car now to say the least!
pics and vids to come....
SWEET!!!!
Kenny's shop is VERY clean and IMO you couldn't possibly ask for a better place to bring your TGP for tuning (or ANY other car for that matter). i drove 14hrs round trip to do this and it was MORE than worth the drive!
fun times :icon_mrgreen:
(http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03039.JPG)
(http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03024.JPG)
(http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03029.JPG)
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03025.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03026.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03028.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03030.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03031.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03032.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03033.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03040.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03045.JPG
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/DSC03046.JPG
vids to come....i still need to upload them....
some of these vids kinda suck but still fun to watch :icon_wink:
this is the baseline run. the vid is kind of dark because we did it the night before with the shop doors closed:
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03019.MPG (14.1 MB)
this is a driver's side front/corner vid of a WOT pull. the night before Thomas stopped by (aka GPChief/twalt13 - really nice guy; he owns the black TGP you see in the shop) and helped Kenny set the car up for tuning the next day. since my coolant overflow tank had to be removed to have access to the ECM for the emulator, Thomas rigged up the Zerex coolant bottle to catch any overflow (as you can see it's not there in the 1st vid). the baseline run the night before resulted in a little coolant being spilled on the floor :laugh: :icon_redface:
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03034.MPG (8.5 MB)
another driver's side front/corner vid of a WOT pull. this was the next day so it's brighter.
that's Kenny at work doing the tuning:
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03036.MPG (7.6 MB)
this is a rear driver's side/corner view of another WOT pull. yeah my trunk wasn't latched :laugh: as you can see my rear alingnment is wayy off. i'm not going to worry about it unitil i get my new struts and coilover parts installed. my car is wayyy quieter now with the old crusty TSTE mufflers than it was with the single glasspack i previously had:
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03038.MPG (5.7 MB)
driver's side vid of another WOT pull. i was a little too close hence the audio distortion:
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03043.MPG (6.0 MB)
this is a driver's side/corner vid of a dyno pull Kenny was doing for driveability to make sure the bucking problem was fixed (it's my understanding this type of dyno tuning cannot be done on a Dynojet machine):
http://www.turbosedan.com/vids/MOV03044.MPG (6.6 MB)
enjoy :icon_biggrin:
Thats awesome Josh! I wish KAZ motorsports wasn't so far away.
Thanks for the compliments Josh. I was more than happy to get things straight for you.
The chip that was in your car...not so good. It makes no wonder it was still bucking with nothing more than the manual trans flag checked. Changing fan temps does not fix that either! ;)
nice josh!
good #s
Great #'s for a basically "stock" TGP setup. :icon_mrgreen: I think we're going to have quite a few stock turbo cars turning 13 sec ET's in the near future... :icon_cool:
personally i think i'm pushing more hp & tq than that now. since i've put the MBC back in the car got MUCH quicker since the KAZ Motorsprorts tune. that's not to say anything bad about Kenny's tune of course. it was my fault i didn't look more closely at the TGP wastegate solenoid lines i used during the tuning session and varify they weren't leaking :icon_sad: i really think i would have made closer to 270whp (corrected) with the way it is now but that's all speculation. at the very least i would have had more area under the curve.
i can't wait to take the Cutlass to a track in VA at low elevation!
Quote from: TurboSedan on November 25, 2006, 12:09:58 AM
personally i think i'm pushing more hp & tq than that now. since i've put the MBC back in the car got MUCH quicker since the KAZ Motorsprorts tune. that's not to say anything bad about Kenny's tune of course. it was my fault i didn't look more closely at the TGP wastegate solenoid lines i used during the tuning session and varify they weren't leaking :icon_sad: i really think i would have made closer to 270whp (corrected) with the way it is now but that's all speculation. at the very least i would have had more area under the curve.
i can't wait to take the Cutlass to a track in VA at low elevation!
More torque for sure! You're probably getting damn near a 450 ft-lb spike of torque @ the crank when you mash the go pedal. I think I may have the same problem you had w/ your wastegate solenoid..I just picked up a boost gauge off of a friend to throw in the TGP. It's an autometer gauge, and it was actually accurate in his car, hopefully I don't end up with it reading boost w/ the engine off. :laugh: I'm also going to borrow a scan tool from my friends shop to scan the car sometime this weekend.
FYI, that chip came in the car I bought, Kenny made it. ;) I never modified a chip, save for the .bins I sent Davis.
Quote from: god910 on November 27, 2006, 03:11:00 AM
FYI, that chip came in the car I bought, Kenny made it. ;) I never modified a chip, save for the .bins I sent Davis.
ahh...Jeff M told me awhile back ("behind closed doors" in a PM of course) that the chip i got from you was a modified Top Gun chip and that you admitted you had sold some copied TG chips and modified TG chips. so i guess he was full of it?
as far as Kenny varifying the chip (that i got from you) was a TG chip...i'm not sure what he was comparing it to to come to that conclusion. maybe he was just going by the what i told him (which was what Jeff M told me).
NO WAY is that chip that was in Josh's car anything I put together. It only had 23 changes from a TG chip. Even back in the day when I first started with the 5-speed chips the TG with minor changes would not work. It ran like ass and would not allow boost. Actually the only thing I can thank Mick for was helping me to get the car to run decent and there was NO relation to the TG chip when we finished. If you laid it down to an AZRC chip it had similarities...but then again Jeff M chips have a very close relation to the AZRC chips. :icon_rolleyes:
Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. And it seems like Jeff might have been trying to remove Kenny from the loop. (Mighty noble of you to lie about me Jeff. :icon_lol:) I really REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want to bring this back up, but this is THE chip that started the Kenny/Jeff war. Jeff always claimed that Kenny stole the chip, and just changed a few things to make it work with the manual. The only stuff I ever changed from the chip that I got from my car (Which I bought from a kid named Josh he was on w-body, but I can't remember what his s/n was) was stupid stuff like EGR, fan on/off setpoints, BFC if requested, and top speed boost cut or whatever it was. Both my cars broke before I started tuning :laugh:.
Whoops, replied at the same time. :laugh: Kenny, look at it. I don't know what to tell you unless it got damaged, it's the VERY MEMCAL that my car ran brilliantly off of. Which is why I don't have a clue why it wasnt' working on Josh's car. I plucked it from my ECM and mailed it to him. :icon_question: And I do still have the .bin and I can run a compare if you'd like. Maybe some 1's and 0's got kicked around. :laugh:
If you are 100% sure that is the original "Kenny 5-speed chip" then this makes me wonder if the .bin I had labeled on floppy disks got mixed up when I was "learning" to burn and write chips and the "original" ass running chip got miss labeled. That would be a huge embarassment to me and would explain why Jeff M swore I copied his chip. That would suck because that really was an honest mistake that got blown way out of proportion.
I find it hard to believe it worked in any car though. It would not allow boost, ran ASS rich to a point of stalling all the time and fouled plugs, it would idle surge from 600RPM up to 1600 RPM all the time and a bunch of other driveability issues. It was a TERRIBLE chip and I thought I deleted the file all together when I started "working" with Mick for the short term.
Well hell that was nearly 4 or 5 years ago and look how far I have come now! ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: TurboSedan on November 27, 2006, 05:42:40 AM
ahh...Jeff M told me awhile back ("behind closed doors" in a PM of course) that the chip i got from you was a modified Top Gun chip and that you admitted you had sold some copied TG chips and modified TG chips. so i guess he was full of it?
it's too bad i don't have access to that old PM from Jeff so i could actually quote Jeff. Luke might be able to look it up but meh, what's the point anyway...
i think the actual chip that started the shit between Jeff and Kenny was the TopGun chip that came in GPChief's old Turbo STE. since Thomas and Kenny both lived in Colorado, Jeff assumed Kenny borrowed the TG chip from Thomas so he could copy the .bin and/or edit it and re-sell it as his. the chip i got from you Jay just added fuel to the fire and it seems that Jeff M assumed yet again it must be his made-of-pure-solid-gold TG chip :laugh: that my car had (as if he's the only one that knows how to burn a TGP chip :icon_rolleyes: )
Quote from: god910 on November 27, 2006, 09:18:22 AM
Whoops, replied at the same time. :laugh: Kenny, look at it. I don't know what to tell you unless it got damaged, it's the VERY MEMCAL that my car ran brilliantly off of. Which is why I don't have a clue why it wasnt' working on Josh's car. I plucked it from my ECM and mailed it to him. :icon_question: And I do still have the .bin and I can run a compare if you'd like. Maybe some 1's and 0's got kicked around. :laugh:
well, every car is different so that might have alot to do with why it ran so wierd/crappy in my car. the speedometer was wayyyy off (i had to set the speedo at ~55mph to be traveling an actual 75mph), EGR code 32 came on after i unplugged/removed the actual EGR valve, it bucked like CRAZY, etc. it boosted just fine though, however i was (and still am) using a MBC. the car was pretty quick with that chip though (nothing like it is now with the new chip but it was still pretty quick). the plugs never fouled out even though my dyno run last year in Denver showed sub 10:1 A/F as soon as it spooled up.
almost forgot, my car also had a very bad idle surging problem with the chip i got from Jay. it would surge from way down to 400 RPM up to 1100 RPM. not only that, if i were coasting in neutral the idle would surge between 1500-2000 RPM.
The first atmel and AMA i got from Jay (god910) when i was trying to get mine running was corrupted to the point nothing on it resembled the settings to run a car.....i blame the Xrays and stuff at the border when it was scanned.
Jay sent me the .bin for my settings we discussed and i have taken off from that point.
Quote from: Invasion1 on November 27, 2006, 09:49:43 AM
The first atmel and AMA i got from Jay (god910) when i was trying to get mine running was corrupted to the point nothing on it resembled the settings to run a car.....i blame the Xrays and stuff at the border when it was scanned.
Jay sent me the .bin for my settings we discussed and i have taken off from that point.
yeah, my chip might have gotten damaged from being bumped around while it was in the hands of USPS? it's hard to say. Jay said the speedo was accurate in his black 5-speed TGP even though he was using a Getrag 282 just like myself.
My point is the ones built with the AMA and Atmel AT29C256 chip don't ship or handle well at all.
Static bags and wrapped in 1/2 of tin foil was the way i shipped mine after i had a few DOA's when i first began selling them, after that no issues.
Oh well...all water under the bridge at this point in time. Mistakes happen and confusion inflicts. :icon_redface:
You are satisifed with the tune you have now Josh? Obviously NOTHING like what was in there.
Quote from: TGPilot on November 27, 2006, 09:56:04 AM
Oh well...all water under the bridge at this point in time. Mistakes happen and confusion inflicts. :icon_redface:
You are satisifed with the tune you have now Josh? Obviously NOTHING like what was in there.
hell yeah i love it! the only problem is that we forgot to take care of the code 32 EGR thing but that's no big deal. no more idle surging at all; it's nice and smooth. speedometer is now correct, bucking is 90% gone (i think my #5 injector may be leaking causing a bit of bucking). idle settles down to ~1000 RPM while coasting in neutral instead of surging between 1500-2000 RPM like it used to do, and of course, the car is a helluva lot faster, ECSPECIALLY in 4th and 5th gear! i had the car up to 125mph 2 days ago (the fastest i've ever had the car yet). i actually got up to 112mph in 4th before having to shift to 5th, and even in 5th gear it pulled right up to 125mph NO problem! it felt like i could have easily gotten up to 145mph if i wanted to (not that i would).
i'm kind of worried about the A/F tuning that was done considering we didn't know about the leaking wastegate lines at the time (my fault). like i mentioned earlier, after i got home boost was spiking to ~15psi and then would settle down to 5-6psi up towards redline. i just hope that we didn't make a fuel curve that was too lean considering what was essentially a boost leak. i don't know if that was happening on the dyno or not, which is why i was wanting to get those dyno graphs emailed to me so i could see boost & A/F curves on my best run :icon_wink: i remember my hp was dropping off towards redline which to me indicates boost was indeed falling off towards redline while on the dyno? my whp barely dropped off at all when i dyno'd at DynoPros last year and that was with the MBC.
but yeah i did put the MBC back in when i got home from Colorado and the car got MUCH MUCH faster. it was the first time i had actually lost traction in 3rd gear while on dry/clean pavement! i wish i had dyno'd with the MBC instead because i had no idea the TGP wastegate solenoid lines were leaking. according to my shitty Autometer mechanical boost gauge (seems to be very innaccurate) boost would spike to 15psi very briefly, then settle at 13psi to redline with the MBC installed. i checked plugs after a few days of this and they all looked a
tad lean (
except #5, which looked normal) so i turned the MBC down 2 turns so the boost gauge is now showing a 13psi spike and settling at 11psi.
i'm going to install brand new R42LTS plugs today and re-check them after a few days.
but yes, the car is so much nicer to drive now not to mention being a helluva lot quicker!
Yeah Kenny your chip looks pretty kick ass. I just wish all you guys didn't live so far away. I'm retired now, and am thinking about fixing the 5 speed car, and I need a little push. :laugh: I thinking of doing it kind of ghey though. The cars pretty beat, so I'd be ditching the interior and all other non-essentials. I'm thinking of pulling the drivetrain at least, and switching the brakes to vacuum, and doing the 5 speed swap *correctly*. I have a friend here who has a DiscoTater with 1000 mi or so on it and only wants $450 IIRC. Of course I'm going roatated mount in the WRX (GT30R) and will have my stock turbo to play with. It's quite a bit bigger, but not that big. But it'd be fun to play with (and I'd get some much needed fab practice time) and see what it could do.
BTW, the WRX should be in the 11's come March, if my buyout goes according to plan. :icon_twisted:
And Josh, with the added power you're making shouldn't you be running R43's? The rule is 1 heat range for every 100 HP, and from the sounds of it, you're at least there.
Quote from: god910 on November 27, 2006, 10:40:22 AM
And Josh, with the added power you're making shouldn't you be running R43's? The rule is 1 heat range for every 100 HP, and from the sounds of it, you're at least there.
good point! i'm glad you brought that up. i know the L67 guys have to go to Autolite 104s after a few mods and then a different heat range plug with even more mods so i don't see why the same wouldn't apply to my engine. what plug # would you recommend and what gap? i'm currently running a .038" gap. like R43LTS? (i'm not too keen on plugs haha).
btw, i'll be traveling through southern Indiana on I-64 later this week. if i have the time/money maybe i could swing up to Muncie.
If the ac Delcos go by the number, then R43's would be a hotter plug. The NA 3.1's run R44's for example. By the way, our stock R42LTS' are the same as the Autolite 103's(some sites cross-reference them to 104's though, most parts stores list 103's as the same thing fwiw). ;)
EDIT: The .038'' gap you're using now is fine. Did you smell of the plugs when you pulled them Josh? If you have a leaky injector, the plug on that #5 cylinder will smell like raw fuel after you let the car sit a while after driving it.
sounds like good times had at KAZ...congrats on the numbers for sure. glad you got that bucking taken care of, i think you were the only 5spd having this problem.
Quote from: intern8tion9l on November 28, 2006, 11:36:14 PM
sounds like good times had at KAZ...congrats on the numbers for sure. glad you got that bucking taken care of, i think you were the only 5spd having this problem.
VERY nice looking Cutlass!
I think was run into before, and was pretty sure it was the other way, but by the looks of the n/a plug Matt's right. But I know NGK's go number up, heat range down. IOW, my WRX came with BKR6E's stock, I just installed BKR7E's to go one heat range colder.