Alright- Kyle (Grinders18) was by my place today and we were driving our TGP's, and we pulled over- his car died, refused to start again (this happened at 10PM, it is now 2PM) still refuses to start. When you try to start it, it will crank and crank, but will not fire. You can't feel the engine fire. When you try to start it in the dark, the sparkplug wires LIGHT UP a bright white/blue! What could be going on here? Any ideas? We are at my house with NO ideas. All the fuses are good, the battery has been charged, and nothing seems to be contacting the sparkplug wires. Any ideas, comments, etc. are greatly appreciated!!
Thanks!!
Nick & Krenzy
Fuel pump or crank sensor is a good start. :dunno:
Quote from: sleeperred90tgp on May 05, 2007, 07:13:52 AM
Fuel pump or crank sensor is a good start. :dunno:
But would either of these cause the car to just die out of nowhere? When it died, it didn't sputter or anything, it just was sitting there and was like the power was cut- it just died there on the spot. Would either of these cause the spark plug wires to light up??? This is the wierdest thing both of us have ever seen!!!
Don't know about your light show.
Check the fuel pressure and eliminate that possibility. Then go from there.
Jud
you can try tapping on the fuel tank from the bottom, it may or may not help you find out if the pump is bad, but if it runs after you tap it you have a good idea. Did you try removing any of the plugs to see if they are fouled?
Best bet is check fuel pressure, like Jud said, if it's ~45ish psi at prime before startup you should have enough to get it running.
Otherwise you are looking at a spark issue, most common causes are the ICM, ECM, or the crank sensor as stated above.
years ago I worked for a fleet shop that didn't like to replace anything unless they had to. Because of this everytime it would rain we had many cars that wouldn't start and the light shows were very good at times. spraying the bad plug wires with WD-40 would usually get them started. So I would think you do have some bad wires but if it was running it shouldn't be the reason why it shut off. Once we would get these cars running the engine heat would let them run the rest of the day without issue. Was it raining when it shut off? The light show usually means you do have spark. Check a few plugs.
Tim
Hey guys...I got home last night but first got online now. Here's a bit more info...Nick did a good write up. When we pulled it home, we immediately set to work debunking all the possibilities. As most know, everything has been replaced...COMPLETE tune up. Plugs, wires, coils, ICM, ECM, Fuel pump, injectors, CPS, all has been replaced. I understand they can die for no reason...but we tested the fuel first. At the fuel rail, there was fuel squirting out: so it has fuel pressure. We removed two plugs from a coil, and saw the arc...did this on each of the 3 coil packs and all worked. Removed a plug, plugged it to the wire, grounded it to see the spark, and it did spark and fuel squirted out of the plug hole, so both the plugs and injectors work.
So, fuel and spark are there...now what? To me, I've heard this same sounds when the car's out of gas, but I had put only 22 miles on that FULL tank of gas when it died. It cranks and cranks but does not turn over, or even sputter! I did use a gas that I hadn't used before, however Nick has been using it in his cars. Is it possible I got some bad gas? I'm trying to CSI all aspects of this, but I keep drawing a blank.
I appreciate all the input, and hope we can nail this. Thanks!
Krenzy
Do you have Enough fuel pressure? Just because you're getting some, doesn't always mean you're getting enough to fire?
We didn't have a test gauge, but nevertheless, it should have sputtered and burnt the fuel in the cylinders out, correct?
To Kyle and everyone here- I just talked to my neighbor, who is a mechanic at a local dealer, and he said the wires "lighting up" is a result of your wires gone bad, regardless of age. If the wires are bad, it may get spark to the engine, but probably not enough for the engine to run.... Kyle did you leave your keys here with the car?
yea my friends escort did that, new wires fixed it, id start with that, since they are arcing
Check for compression if you can. Maybe the chain snapped.
Hey Nick. No I didn't...I was kinda thinking of that on my way back home, but after locking them in the car, I force-of-habit locked it. Kicking myself too now lol. Hopefully that's all it is...I'd be kicking myself if that's it lol...hopefully I can kick myself.
I'm really leaning towards wires, because according to my neighbor (the mechanic) this describes EXACTLY what it is doing- Kyle maybe we should buy some wires and throw em in before we put it on the flat bed? Oh wait no keys nvm :icon_redface:
Take proof of ownership to a dealership and get a new door key cut for a few $'s...that is, if you don't have a spare set of keys somewhere.
No, I have the keys. The problem is I had to leave my car up at Nicks, which is almost 3 hours from my place...and since this weekend up there I locked my keys in there, and then got them out lol...I'm extra cautious to take the keys and lock it without thinking. Hmmmmm...I was also suggested that it was possibly bad gas? Since I hadn't used that gas before, maybe that was a problem? But it wouldn't explain why your cars still run while you fill them up with the same gas....
And then a guy at O'Reilleys Auto Parts, and a guy at work, both suggested maybe the neutral safety switch? Can anyone give any insight as to how that could be a problem? What happens when that goes bad or breaks?
I don't think the engine would even turn over if you NSS was bad. if the wires are old its time to change them anyways, see where that gets ya. I'd go with Delco brand stock wires, I don't have the pn# but they are readily available, same as the N/A 3.1 IIRC.
The thing is they're like 4 months old. Hell with it lol if they're bad I'm just going with standard wires this time...then when they go bad again lol I save money.
Yeah it really seems like bad wires to me, Kyle. If the NSS is bad, it wouldn't even crank...
Alrighty...my dad chimed in with maybe the timing skipped? I don't know much of anything about that though...Nick I wonder if there's a way I can mail you my set of keys and a set of plug wires?
hey also check the plug in for the Ignition module, (DIS) mine somehow was getting pushed but the oil drain line for the turbo and i had to ziptie it on, and the car would have spark, but not correctly, so no fireing at all, just outright died at one point, so defintly check that
Quote from: grinders_18 on May 07, 2007, 12:32:12 PM
Alrighty...my dad chimed in with maybe the timing skipped? I don't know much of anything about that though...Nick I wonder if there's a way I can mail you my set of keys and a set of plug wires?
Yeah- if you could mail/ship me a set of keys, I could try to start it once it has been completely dry for a couple days- if it starts, then it will save ya the trip with the flatbed! Oh btw I had to wire it and cover the window opening with a rag- it was raining this evening- just thought I'd let ya know.
Let me know what you wanna do Kyle.
I appreciate it, Nick! Thanks alot man! I owe you for all the help...I'll get back to you when I wake up later on. Just got off work so...When I get back from my new car shopping lol. Trading in the Camaro possibly...considering a 2000 Monte Carlo SS non S/C. Should be nice! So I'll get back to you soon!
Alrighty let me know Kyle.
Hey Kyle- I got the keys in the mail today. I put the battery charger on your TGP for 2 hours, and it still refuses to start....
What should we do now?
After charging it, it turns over strong now, but still refuses to fire.... any ideas?
did u check out the ignition module plug? fuel pressure? Compression? theres alot of things that can go wrong, maybe find some1 with a scan tool or a car u can swap parts
When are you going to check the crank sensor. Sounds like you have checked most everything else.
Jud
As stated before, the CPS has been replaced...along with the ICM, and yes there is fuel pressure, assumed compression as we did not test it, however there is gas and oxygen and spark in the cylinder, so even a backfire would make sense. We did the paperclip method, here you stick a paperclip into the disgnostic port, and nothing came up. All clean.
just because you replaced the electronics does not mean they are functioning properly, thats why the remanufacturers offer warranty!! My bet is that the spark is weak.
Remove a plug and have someone turn it over. Hold the plug with something that has rubber on the handles so you don't get zapped. If it sparks when its not near metal thats a good sign. Then bring it closer to metal and see if it still sparks. I'm betting ICM or CS.
I did a compression test on Kyle's TGP today, and it has about 165-170 PSI of compression.
I checked for spark and it DEFINITELY has spark- I held the plug close, but not touching any metal, and had someone crank it over, whatever gas was in the engine shot out and ignited the spark and pretty much turned into a giant flamethrower aimed at my face and burnt me pretty good... some hair has gotten singed, but its all good.... but yea it DEFINITELY has spark!!!!
What next?
Are you fricikin serious :laugh: Nick , please man , Don't get me wrong, I think I'd DIE for my TGP to, but first you have to live a little longer than you have now. Be careful dude, dawm
And it wasn't even my TGP either :laugh: lol Yeah I dove out of the way as soon as I saw the gigantic flame coming toward my face, so only the very tips of my bangs I guess they're called got a little singed... just the tips though- and the hair on my right arm is half gone- not like there was much there in the first place :laugh:
I'm perfectly fine- I dove out of the way quick enough to not get singed too bad...lol
Kyle your car is out to kill me!! ROFL jk :laugh:
I tried to start the car again today with no luck....but I did notice something.... the oil pressure gauge seriously WIGS OUT! as soon as I let go of the key after cranking it for a few seconds. I'm not even touching anything and the needle goes to zero, then BANG it pegs itself PAST 80PSI, then it goes to 20 then shoots back to 80 and it will wig out like this for awhile if you let it... it does stop if you turn the key off for a few seconds and turn it back on....
Does this bring up any other ideas?
Quote from: TGP Nick on May 16, 2007, 07:44:50 PM
I tried to start the car again today with no luck....but I did notice something.... the oil pressure gauge seriously WIGS OUT! as soon as I let go of the key after cranking it for a few seconds. I'm not even touching anything and the needle goes to zero, then BANG it pegs itself PAST 80PSI, then it goes to 20 then shoots back to 80 and it will wig out like this for awhile if you let it... it does stop if you turn the key off for a few seconds and turn it back on....
Does this bring up any other ideas?
oil pressure sensor can shut the fuel off, if thats bad then...
but he said fuel came spraying out, so it probably has fuel. its probably wiring or somthing. Whats wierd is my TGP wouldnt start for like 3 days for no reason, then suddenly started like nothing happend and ran great, never had such a problem again.....wierd
Quote from: Prospeeder on May 16, 2007, 11:10:26 PM
but he said fuel came spraying out, so it probably has fuel. its probably wiring or somthing. Whats wierd is my TGP wouldnt start for like 3 days for no reason, then suddenly started like nothing happend and ran great, never had such a problem again.....wierd
The oil pressure sensor can shut the fuel pump off, the pump will turn on when you turn the key but the sensor can shut it off, At least thats my understanding.
EDIT: Nick, you mentioned that you had to charge the battery, a bad battery will cause some of the wierdest symptoms you've ever seen. (I never knew you could have negative RPMs, LOL) Just a thought.
The oil pressure switch is probably bad and causing it not to run. The switch serves two purposes...it sends information to oil pressure gauge in the cluster, and it supplies voltage to the fuel pump when the engine is running(the fuel pump is powered by the starting circuit/fuel pump relay initially and then when oil pressure builds, it is powered through the oil pressure switch).
EDIT: I can scan up a troubleshooting chart related the fuel pump/relay/oil pressure sensor if you want...
The oil gauge has been doing that for as long as I can remember. And the battery is a BRAND NEW Optima Red Top, so I'm fairly confident it's fine...he charged it as a way to make sure all possibilities were being covered.
Now, coming back to my mind, here's how the week went: Didn't drive it Saturday or Sunday, as I recall, as I was driving the Camaro. Spent most of Sunday cleaning the Prix. Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday the car sat in my garage, not being started, as I was sick as hell. Wednesday night, I had to move it out of the garage, and then this happened: when I tried to start it, I had to give it gas to get it to turn over. Now usually it just turned over, but this time I had to help it. Strange I know, and I'm not sure if this is related to the problem I'm having now, but before that week it never needed my help. Any thoughts?
Ok, so now after talking to 3 different GM shops, after describing my problem to them...they all jump at it being a Crank Position Sensor being bad. So here's my question: can we replace it without jacking the engine forward? Last time I did it I had the engine rolled forward..can it be done as it sits or not?
Quote from: grinders_18 on May 18, 2007, 11:37:38 AM
Ok, so now after talking to 3 different GM shops, after describing my problem to them...they all jump at it being a Crank Position Sensor being bad. So here's my question: can we replace it without jacking the engine forward? Last time I did it I had the engine rolled forward..can it be done as it sits or not?
You can see it from the top, but I doubt you can get to it unless you have really skinny arms...even then, it would surely be a pain in the ass. Just rotate the engine forward or remove the alternator(with its bracket attached) and set it aside(don't forget to disconnect the negative battery terminal before removing the alt ;) ).
x2 on removing the alt and rotating, should be no problem to get it. which one has the tendency to break, the CPS or knock? be careful with either, it'd be a bitch to get out if it breaks.
Knock sensor has the tendency to break...so can I just remove the alternator and not roll the engine forward? Or do both?
I was looking through the TGP service manual, and it looks to me like the crank position sensor might be causing our problems... it causes the exact symptoms/problems we're having, so we should probably replace that...
Well, we replaced the crank position sensor and it fired right up! Kyle started driving it back to his place, and it is acting up...
It shakes badly at idle, and is now completely gutless... it literally takes FOREVER to do 0-60, even with it floored... He called me and said the check engine light came on, but he checked for codes and no codes came up... He's gonna try it again if/when the check engine light comes on again...
Any ideas of what may be causing this?
Did u mess up the fireing order when messing around checking spark or broke a wire or somthing? Sounds like its misfiring badly or somthing
All wires are connected properly...I believe what's going on is the SAME frickin problem I had a year ago, which started the GRINDERS 18 ROLLING LEARNING THREAD lol...so that's where I'm concentrating my efforts.
SOLVED! I checked the plugs to make sure they hadn't fouled out already, and they were fine...so I had a random thought. I checked the fuses on the passenger side under the hood...the Injector fuses, to be exact. And wouldn't you know it? The first fuse I pulled was blown. So, I jumped in the Camaro, and flew to Advance Auto. $2.50 for 5 10 amp fuses, put one in, and viola! Problem solved! Thank God!
You know it's bad when someone who owns a TGP can say "Hey! I'm getting good at this!"