i have almost all the parts. (still need a turbo support bracket). as soon as my hand is back in one piece, i'll be back at this bitch again.
the wrenching isn't a problem for me. what i do need to know, is what i need to do to make the tgp run with a 5 speed.
for example:
is wiring the neutral safety switch so it's always in neutral good enough?
if not, do i need to send my pcm out to have it re-flashed, or does someone just need to repogram the memcal?
off on a bit of a tangent, does anyone know if someone sells a rebuild kit for the 282 that will withstand more power? eventually, i want to rebuild the tgp motor. i'm hoping for something like 250+ hp. i odn't want to get a 284, given that they are so odd/expensive. so, given that i have two 282s, and another on the way, i'd like to strengthen one.
back on topic, is there anything else i need to know to make the tgp 5 speed compatible?
It definately was alot of work,so I hope you have alot of patients. Now I took it step at a time, fixing everything that did not look correct which took much longer than just swapping tranny's. First Not only do you have to wire the nuetral safety wires correctly but you also need to extend the wires for the speed sensor and also wire for the reverse lights. That'll take care of the wiring but you need to then drill your hole for the cables look and find that write up for it on this website, contact me if you can't find it.
Good luck with your project first. It is worth it.
The turbo support bracket we made for Jimmys was made on and off the car. While the car was apart I made two flat plates one fitted for the two holes on the top of the trans that are not used and one for the crossover. After putting the crossover on I cut a piece of round stock and angled the ends to fit in the spot. I used some gorilla glue to hold it in place. After it dried I removed the bracket and took it to work to weld.
To bypass the N/S I am pretty sure you just tie the 2 heavy gauge wires together. We cut the N/S switch wires off the switch and made all the connections on that so that we didn't have to cut the harness. If you have a donor car I would suggest grabbing the clutch switch when you grab the pedals. If you have that its just extend those 2 heavy gauge wires to the switch.
It has been a few months since we did this but I think I remember the keyless entry also requires jumper at the N/S harness to keep working but I can't remember which ones. If you need this info let me know and I can take a look in Jimmys FSM. Also tape up all unused wires good. The wire that doesn't let your engine rev above 3k is there at the switch if it hits ground it woun't rev above 3 k. So that wire needs unconnected to anything to rev.
Are you planning to rebuild your trans? It is a bit of a pain to do. First off the parts for this trans are very expensive. Plus when we got Jimmys open we found quite a few other parts needed that do not come in the 500 dollar kit. (ours did have syncros) Some of these parts are still available from the dealer. The other problem with rebuilding these are the special tools needed just to take it apart and put it back together. (I hope this works) here is a picture of the stand needed to press the gear set out of the case then back into it. (http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q276/JimmyTGP/100_0240.jpg)
You also need a press. I think Jimmy spent about 400 bucks on tools to do this. I think it was worth it because the trans he got from the yard probibly would have worked but not lasted. It had some issues. Check out Jimmys pictures I think most tranny pictures are on the second page http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q276/JimmyTGP/?start=0
Tim
after reading this Jimmys post made me think of some more stuff. The reverse light switch on the 5sp has a plug on it grab the mating plug from the donors harness so that you can hook that up to your N/S wiring. You will still be able to unplug the switch if needed. That pigtail is still available from GM. We bought a new pigtail.
I also think I remember the speedo connector is differant then the auto pigtail so you will need that too when you extend the wires. I don't know if you know the speedo will be way off with the 5 spd. Kenny can help you out if you get one of his chips to fix that.
Jimmys donor car also did not have ABS so the 5sp axles didn't have the tone wheels on them. The ones on the auto axles will fit but are a royal pain to get back on. If you tap them off the old axles evenly they come off pretty easy. We heated them up pretty good and put the axles in my frig to get cold. And they were still hard to get back on. We nicked a few teeth and had to file them to clean them up. They seem to work fine he isn't getting an ABS light coming on.
You will also need to cut 2 holes through the fire wall. I think they are 1 inch and you also have to cut 2 layers of metal. We did the first layer from inside and the second from under the hood.
Tim
the hole for the auto cable won't work? is it just too small?
i have the entire harness from the donor car. it was my old ste. the only thing i forgot to take off of it was the clutch switch. so i'll have all needed wiring an connectors.
who is kenny and how much will it cost me to get a chip from him?
my ste had abs, so the axles had the teeth on them for the wss. however, i'll be converting to vacuum brakes. so i won't need any of that crap.
apparently, rebuildin the trans is now out of the question. i don't have a press or any of the other specialty tools needed. i've seen the rebuild kits on ebay go for around 200 bucks, but they don't include tools.
jimmy, what do you mean by "everything that did not look correct?"
i have alldata, so i'll have any wiring diagrams i'll need.
i think, if anyone is interested, i'll have three 282 trannys for sale soon. i'm going to try to finance a 6 speed so i don't have to rebuild a 282.
Quote from: stockgp on July 08, 2007, 12:28:17 PM
the hole for the auto cable won't work? is it just too small?
i have the entire harness from the donor car. it was my old ste. the only thing i forgot to take off of it was the clutch switch. so i'll have all needed wiring an connectors.
who is kenny and how much will it cost me to get a chip from him?
my ste had abs, so the axles had the teeth on them for the wss. however, i'll be converting to vacuum brakes. so i won't need any of that crap.
apparently, rebuildin the trans is now out of the question. i don't have a press or any of the other specialty tools needed. i've seen the rebuild kits on ebay go for around 200 bucks, but they don't include tools.
jimmy, what do you mean by "everything that did not look correct?"
i have alldata, so i'll have any wiring diagrams i'll need.
i think, if anyone is interested, i'll have three 282 trannys for sale soon. i'm going to try to finance a 6 speed so i don't have to rebuild a 282.
The shifter has 2 cables and they won't fit that 1 hole and I think the location was differant.
Kenny is the guy that runs this site TGPilot.
The rebuild kits are not too bad it the syncros that up the price. Also those kits don't have any of the needle bearings this trans has just the rollers.
What Jimmy meant was while we had the engine out we did a bunch of other things that were alot easiers to fix with the motor and trans out. When we did his we dropped the oil pan and changed the oil pump we also removed the exhaust manifolds so he could wrap them. We also replaced the metal heater line that runs along the firewall and down the passenger side fender well. We also rebushed the engine cradle and replace the front mount. There were other things too I can't remember right now.
Tim
There is a dimple in the floorboard on the passengers side that you need to hole saw out to run the 5-speed shift linkage. The Auto hole is way too far off to make it work. If I remember right the dimple is just under the top of the carpet as you peel it down on the upper left or lower left of the floor pan. You have to go through the floor board and then also through the firewall. Have a good hole saw and plenty of machineist lube handy to cut the hole.
I charge $400 for the TGP 5-speed chip. The power and driveability of this chip will blow you away!!
Hey kenny I do believe that the picture for that, is still on this website
ok guys. back at it again today. i'm at the point where i need to cut the hole for the clutch master cylinder.
anyone have pics or tips for me? i searched and found refs to www.brian89gp.com, but the site no longer exists.
I'm interested in this too as i am in the process of doing this too......
one tip is DO NOT cut the hole for the CMC TOO Big or you're SCREWED! Take it slow. cut, test fit, cut test fit...cut test fit....etc etc...
kyle (bake82) if you look at yours (my old car) you will see a custom bracket i made to keep that CMC in place on the firewall.
i have it bolted there where its not gonna pop out anymore.
for those who have everything ripped out doing the swap and are not changing the firewall plate to a 5-speed specific i HIGHLY reccomend making something like that to ensure the CMC doesn't pop out on ya.
i had mine pop out 3 times in a month before i got wise and fabbed up a fix
ok thats my W-body advice for 2007
stay tuned for another random tech post in 08 :laugh:
invasion1, did you drill and install the anti-rotation screw, or just use this bracket?
bake82, any chance of pics of said bracket?
kenny?, what exactly do you do to the pcm? what are the gains over stock?
Quote from: Invasion1 on July 15, 2007, 08:23:12 PM
kyle (bake82) if you look at yours (my old car) you will see a custom bracket i made to keep that CMC in place on the firewall.
i have it bolted there where its not gonna pop out anymore.
for those who have everything ripped out doing the swap and are not changing the firewall plate to a 5-speed specific i HIGHLY reccomend making something like that to ensure the CMC doesn't pop out on ya.
i had mine pop out 3 times in a month before i got wise and fabbed up a fix
ok thats my W-body advice for 2007
stay tuned for another random tech post in 08 :laugh:
Nice!!! good to know. I will make sure to use it when I get to that point. (it will be very shortly, hopefully within the next 2 weeks!!
Stockgp. I will try to get a pic of said bracket, but I don't know how good they will turn out with it still in the car!! I'll do my best tho!!
I don't have any pics of mine but I hit it on the first shot. I also used a screw to lock it in place and it will never fall off, especially as tight as it is. So for those that are attempting this proceedure just find a dremel tool and start grinding away until you hit your mark. Good luck jimmy
these are pics from turbosedan's swap:
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/trans/
he's got some pics mixed in elsewhere I think so browse through the rest of it. I thought he had a decent pic of the clutch mc cutout, but apparently not of after he trimmed it. i don't either unfortunely. just go slow and keep test fitting. I might have a rough list of the wiring changes if you're doing it all correctly w/ the right switches and plugs.
Getrag 282 vs. 4T60 (as per 1990 Grand Prix service manual)
Along the way I made some page notations in reference to the manual that might help.
Highlighted in red is the stuff that needs to be changed, I included the complete routing of the wires so I knew what the whole picture looked like.
Guide:
C100: pass. firewall main harness
C202: column harness under dash
Similarities:
Vehicle Speed Sensor (ref: 8A-33)
Same for both transaxles, wires shorter on Getrag (I think? and I can't remember if actual connector is different or not);
YEL from A on speed sensor to C8 on ECM, PPL from B on speed sensor to C2 on ECM
Differences:
Upshift Indicator On Ins. Cluster (unnecessary, do if you wish)
Original: ECM B7 (tan/blk, white connector) to TCC Sol to brake switch to fuse block 5 Indic Fuse
New: ECM B7 (tan/blk) to E1 on C100 (Interior side is prewired, just worry about the engine side) to D6 Instrument Cluster, D5 Instrument Cluster (PNK/BLK) to fuse block 5 Indic Fuse
Summary: TAN/BLK wire going to TCC Solenoid is rewired straight to E1 on the firewall connector, bypassing the TCC SOL.
Clutch switch/tranny position switch (ref: Starter & Charging System 8A-30-0)
Original: PPL from Starter Solenoid to E on Tranny POS Switch, YEL from G on Tranny POS Switch to B3 on C100, YEL from B3 on C100 to B6 on C202, YEL to (START) IGN Switch
New: PPL from starter solenoid to B3 on C100, PPL to Clutch Switch, YEL from Clutch Switch to B6 on C202, YEL to (START) IGN Switch
Summary: Thick purple and yellow wires are cut from tranny position switch and spliced together to bypass the switch. Yellow wire on C202 Connector is cut and rerouted through clutch switch before going back to C202. Kills IGN if clutch is not depressed.
Cruise Control (ref: 8A-34, 8A-201-11)
Original: BRN from B from Brake Light Switch to G (Disengage Input) on Cruise Control Module
New: BRN from B on Brake Light Switch to B on Cruise Control Clutch Switch, BRN/WHT from A on Cruise Control Clutch Switch to G on Cruise Control Module
Summary: Brown wire going to brake light switch is cut, cruise cutout is spliced in between cut.
Reverse Light Switch (ref: Back Up Lights 8A-112-0)
Original: LT GRN from C4 on C100 to F on Tranny Position Switch, ORN from D on Tranny POS Switch to Luggage Compartment Release Fuse (RS underhood Electrical Center 15 AMP)
New: LT GRN from C4 on C100 to B on Backup Lights Switch, BRN from A on Backup Lights Switch to 13 ALT FUSE in RS Electrical Center 10 AMP*
*You can leave ORN going to the LCR fuse, no need to change.
Summary: Light green and orange wires are cut from tranny position switch and spliced into reverse light connector.
AIR Switch (Emissions, ref: 8A-20-4) - I don't have this switch so I didn't do anything with it.
BLK/PNK from A18 on ECM to A on AIR Select Switching Valve, BRN from B on AIR SSV to 13 ALT FUSE 10 AMP in RS Electrical Center
NOTE that on TGP's, A18 goes to the wastegate solenoid. I'm sure no one is ever going to swap in an AIR system so this shouldn't be a problem.
At this point, if you have everything apart and want to be really neat, you can remove all remaining sections of wiring from the TCC solenoid and tranny position switch from their source. I reused a lot of the wiring with my new splices and just removed whatever was left, pins/plugs and all.
Quote from: GutlessSupreme on July 16, 2007, 03:38:31 PM
these are pics from turbosedan's swap:
http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/trans/
he's got some pics mixed in elsewhere I think so browse through the rest of it. I thought he had a decent pic of the clutch mc cutout, but apparently not of after he trimmed it. i don't either unfortunely. just go slow and keep test fitting. I might have a rough list of the wiring changes if you're doing it all correctly w/ the right switches and plugs.
i wish i had taken a pic of the CMC hole after i modified it :icon_redface:
it was pretty easy though. basically, just turn the round hole into a larger square hole that matches the end of the CMC. it only took a few minutes with a Dremel tool, a tungsten carbide cutter bit and an 18" long flexshaft. i didn't even remove the brake booster. like others have already said, it's very important to make small cuts and test fit often. that tungsten carbide cutter cuts very fast and goes through the sheet metal like nothing. i never did use the anti-rotation screw. i just made the hole so it fits very tightly in place and then rotated the CMC 45*. it has never fallen out or gotten loose once and it has been 5 years now since i did the swap.
gutless, nice info. more detailed than i had expected. i have alldata, so i could have looked all this crap up, but you saved me a lot of time :icon_biggrin:
turbo, so basically what you do is cut the hole 90* counterclockwise from its orientation, so it locks in place?
my system basicly "sandwiched" the CMC between my halfassed bracket and the firewall so no need for the screw.
and its held there by 3 bolts so there is Zero chance of it moving, but make sure you bleed all the air out of the system otherwise its a pain in the ass to remove and install.
also the Slave Cyl is more or less and one time deal.....once you bust the tabs that hold it in when you first bleed it its fucked.
have fun
Quote from: Invasion1 on July 20, 2007, 09:26:04 AM
also the Slave Cyl is more or less and one time deal.....once you bust the tabs that hold it in when you first bleed it its fricked.
have fun
That is totally what I am most worried about..bleeding the CMC and Slave....
yeah, me too. when i was removing all the 5 speed stuff from the ste, i accidentally cut the hydraulic line
If I remember correct the FSM said the unit is one piece assy. The aftermarket does sell the individual pieces. When we did Jimmys the only piece we used off the donor car was the hose. the replacement parts came with a paper saying how to bleed it. I remember it as hook up the line to the master. Unhook the clips on the slave with the line off. Let the actualtor move out to the end and fill the slave through the hole until full. I believe tilting the slave a little helped fill it. When full hook the line up and push the actuator back in and hook the clips up. This pushes the fluid up the line and into the master pushing the air out. Leave the clips on when installing the slave onto the trans they will pop off when you push the clutch. Fill the resiviour. I took the old parts apart and found the master has a small hole that is uncovered before the pedal is pushed. As soon as you push the pedal a little the hole gets covered by the piston seal in the master. With its placement it allows the system to automaticly bleed any air that does make its way into the circuit. So if the clutch doesn't quite work when you first push it slowly pumping the pedal will finish getting the air out. Its not hard just don't get Jimmy to help put it together :icon_rolleyes:
Tim
I assemble the whole thing and bench bleed it by pushing the slave plunger in and out till no bubbles come out in the resovoir......
then let it sit
do that 5 more times till your SURE no air is left in
then install it in one piece.
Its funny how dodge guys have anytime to come to the pontiac side to try to make us look bad, when we all know including all dodge guys as well the work never ends ;) But he's not kidding, when we bought the aftermarket MC I left the little stopper that came with it, in it so here we were trying to figure out why the brand new one wasn't opperating properly. :icon_redface:
I'm and Electrician, Tim's and all day Mechanic with all Certifications, so now WHO'S job should it have been. :skep:
ok, so the cmc hole is cut. i got a little overzealous on the bottom right corner, so it's a bit too big. but, the cmc still fits tight. i think once i get the anti-rotation screw in, she'll be just fine.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/100_0365.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/100_0366.jpg)
Looks like a good job to me, it'll definately work :thumb: :flamingdevil:
little update.
got to the wiring today. i won't be using the clutch switch (temporarily, i forgot to take it out of my ste before it went to the scrap yard), cruise control or the air system, so none of that wiring i need to mess with. other than that this is a fairly simple procedure.
i extended the wires for the vss using the connector off of my ste harness. i thought of rerouting it through the harness, but i don't want to take the time to take the engine out and the harness off.
i cut the neutral safety switch connector off and only left the purple, yellow, light green and orange wires in. soldered the purple and yellow wires together and the orange and green wires to the reverse light switch. heat shrink and elecrtical tape will make it look neat until i get some wire loom.
that' pretty much it. i got the subframe, strut tower, tie rod an tranny mount all back together. the driver's side cv shaft is in.
i ruined the passenger side shaft in the accident that killed the ste. so, i put the inner spider housing on to the driver's side spider bearing of the tgp. it looks long enough. i'm going to take it to napa or something to compare iwth a passenger side 282 axle from their stock to make sure.
if i had a turbo support bracket, this thing would be driveable in the next few days.
things i still need to do:
bought 25 feet of 3/16" brake line. i'm hoping this will be enough to run new lines to the rear calipers so i can have one piece brake lines.
find the fitting for the rear of the plenum that feeds the vacuum to the brake booster
find a brake booster (had one, dropped it and broke it)
find 94+ brake conversion stuff (maybe)
reassemble turbo so i can mock up a support bracket
have hydraulic line made for the clutch, then bleed the system
i'm sure there are more things that i'm not tihnking of. but, all i really need to drive is the above things completed. minus the brake conversion stuff, of course.
here's a pic of where i left off today
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/100_0415.jpg)
on a side note, free cookie for whoever can tell me what this connector is. for some reason i didn't label it like i did everything else during reassembly. now i can't figure out where it goes
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/100_0413.jpg)
it's in the same loom as the neutral safety switch .
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/100_0414.jpg)
don't know why it just struck me, but is that the connector that plugs into the steering rack?
maybe. i can't remember what that one looks like but I can't think of anything else in that area that looks like that one.
it was. that was the first thing i did today.
now i need to start working on the brake lines. oddly, i can't get the fittings from auto zone or advance for the master cylinder. so, i'll have to get them from a donor in a junk yard somewhere. and, i see the master cylinder doesn't use a double flare. it's a bubble flare? is that the first half of a double flare? seems like a good thing to know before i start working on the lines
no, the first half of a double flare is a single flare ;) a bubble flare you need a different tool for. I'm pretty sure napa sells preflared sections, some with bubble, but I don't think they're any longer than 18"
Damn stockgp you did the same thing I did, I also could not figure where that went. :motz2: How Ironic
which shift cable goes to which lever? i'm finding that the way i have the cables now, i can't shift through all gears.
if i try to switch the cables, the end on one of the cables is twisted at such an angle that it's next to impossible to get it onto the stud.
i know this might sound confusing, so just tell me which lever (x or o) should the thick shift cable be attached to
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/onekcreations/shiftmarks.jpg)
took me a little while to figure out too. I don't even know if I can see my cables under the downpipe but I'll go check.
much appreciated :icon_biggrin:
it appears the thick one attaches to the o in your pic.
the x looks like a smaller cable. the tip of that cable on mine has off-white plastic on it. the other cable looks like it's just metal. I forget how they're attached, but both have the threads of the bolt or stud facing up.
wow, i didn't expect it tonight. thanks :thumb:
oh, and both of my cables have plastic ends, not metal. and the ends have little inserts that hole the cable on the lever
If I remember right the one you have marked X if moved moves O up and down. If I am correct with that them X gets hooked to the cable that moves when you move the shifter left to right and O gets the cable that moves when you move the shifter front to back. I hope you understand that.
Tim
yeah that helps, too. thanks :icon_biggrin: