I just started on a major tuneup on my TGP, since it has all original everything on it and wasn't running so great last year. As some of you may recall, I had a shuddering problem for the last couple weeks I drove the car last year, and the last day I drove it last year it kept stalling all the time.
SO today I started on the tuneup. I will be pulling the upper and lower intakes and valve covers and replacing the gaskets on all of them, since they are all original and I'm sure could use replacement. I will also be replacing every sensor on the engine, along with new plugs and wires.
I am waiting for parts to come in the mail, so I started off today by pulling off my intake plenum and throttle body. From there, I removed my EGR, TB, and all sensors.
I looked inside the intake plenum and it smelled VERY strongly of gas (even though the car hasn't run in 6 months) and the inside of the plenum was coated with a black substance. Also, there was a bit of dirt collecting on top of my LIM, looked like something may have leaked from my UIM gasket and ran all over the top of the LIM. I brought the upper plenum out and filled it with kerosene and tried to clean some of the black residue from the plenum, and some did come out. I scrubbed the ports in the plenum with an old toothbrush and that helped a lot, but I could only get about 1" into each port with the toothbrush and the rest of the inside of the plenum is still pretty dirty.
Anyone have any good recommendations for chemicals to clean it or something to scrub the whole intake out?
If I have time tomorrow, I will be pulling the lower intake manifold next. For those of you who have pulled these out, do you have any tips before I do this?
Thanks
Nick
Nick, I like varsol, I soak a lot of parts in it and they really come out clean and disolves oil.
Get some carb cleaner for that plenum. The gas smell is normal remember this is MPFI so it fires the injectors in pairs.......which means it is dumping gas into the cylinders even when they are not on the compression stroke. Hence why the sfi 3100 gets much better fuel economy than then 3.1 mpfi among other reasons. Good luck and be careful with the crank position sensor on the back side.......they tend to break off in the block.
Ken
In no particular order:
Get new o-rings for all your injectors, and fuel line connections.
Clean your IAC pintle and the IAC port.
Remove the plug on the back of the plenum, and use it as a vacuum supply for boost gauge, BOV etc.
Find some 1.6 / 1 ratio stamped rocker arms, with pushrod guides from a 94 - 95 3100 and swap those in.
If you have any valvetrain noise now is the time to inspect for a collapsed lifter, bent pushrod etc.
Bypass the throttle body heater with a piece of prebent heater hose.
Replace the distributor plug o-ring when its all apart.
Take the LIM and plenum to a machine shop and get them to hot tank them. It will remove ALL carbon deposits and clean up the aluminum like brand new.
The pushrods are different lengths for exhaust and intake valves. Don't mess them up.
The LIM gasket must be installed before the pushrods go in.
Don't be shy with the RTV for the 2 beads on the top of the block.
Use AC delco plugs.
Thats all I can think of of the top of my head right now.
Keep those LIM bolts in the same place they came from. I messed up when I did my 2.8 and the LIM kept leaking and the car ran like crap. Other then that have fun. I am pulling motor out soon and doing complete gasket change out.
Quote from: cobracmdr on April 13, 2008, 06:38:45 PM
Get some carb cleaner for that plenum. The gas smell is normal remember this is MPFI so it fires the injectors in pairs.......which means it is dumping gas into the cylinders even when they are not on the compression stroke. Hence why the sfi 3100 gets much better fuel economy than then 3.1 mpfi among other reasons. Good luck and be careful with the crank position sensor on the back side.......they tend to break off in the block.
Ken
Actually, the last time I drove it and it kept stalling, I think it may have backfired a couple times, hence all of the black crap all over the intake. There was also black crap all over the TB I had just cleaned 3000 miles prior.
I'll use this as a quick checklist
Quote from: 93luminaz34 on April 13, 2008, 06:42:27 PM
In no particular order:
Get new o-rings for all your injectors, and fuel line connections. Done when I replaced the injectors this past summer.
Clean your IAC pintle and the IAC port. Will be replacing IAC and TPS also.
Remove the plug on the back of the plenum, and use it as a vacuum supply for boost gauge, BOV etc. I have a different idea for vac supply for the BOV. Thanks for the tip though ;)
Find some 1.6 / 1 ratio stamped rocker arms, with pushrod guides from a 94 - 95 3100 and swap those in.
If you have any valvetrain noise now is the time to inspect for a collapsed lifter, bent pushrod etc.
Bypass the throttle body heater with a piece of prebent heater hose.
Replace the distributor plug o-ring when its all apart. First thing I did when I got the car
Take the LIM and plenum to a machine shop and get them to hot tank them. It will remove ALL carbon deposits and clean up the aluminum like brand new. Great tip ;) I'll have to do that
The pushrods are different lengths for exhaust and intake valves. Don't mess them up.
The LIM gasket must be installed before the pushrods go in.
Don't be shy with the RTV for the 2 beads on the top of the block.
Use AC delco plugs. Already bought them.
Thats all I can think of of the top of my head right now.
Matt, are these the correct rockers and parts needed to do the 1.6 rocker swap: http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=66405.0 Which is better, the stamped rockers, or roller tips?
It did have a quiet knock sometimes upon cold startup, so I'll have to check everything out in there. Also, do I have to adjust the valves when doing the new lifter swap? I have never had one of these engines apart, so I don't know what to expect. I am used to DOHC engines. :icon_redface:
Thanks for the tips everyone!
Yup those are the stamped rockers. Direct bolt on.
I beleive the rollers require special length pushrods, but dont quote me on that.
Rollers are better, stamped are easier, your call.
Just torque the rocker arms down to spec. There is no lash adjustment.
Awesome thanks, Matt.
Today I pulled my Alternator, PS pump, and the mounting brackets for both off, along with the coolant pipes, fuel lines, then the valve covers and LIM. There was a bit of coolant left in the LIM when I took it off.. is this something to worry about if any coolant gets into the cylinders? All the intake valves appear to be closed, but I'm just wondering.
Everything came off pretty easily, but one minor setback did take place. I was unbolting the coolant pipe from the top of the water pump and the head on one of the bolts snapped off.
I was thinking about removing the waterpump housing, but it appears to be one very big piece alongside the engine... is this easy to remove or no? I was also wondering if it is fairly easy to remove the aluminum motor mount mounted on the left side of the engine, by the waterpump.
Thanks
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 14, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
There was a bit of coolant left in the LIM when I took it off.. is this something to worry about if any coolant gets into the cylinders? All the intake valves appear to be closed, but I'm just wondering.
Some coolant probably splashed into the engine valley too(a little bit does on some LIM jobs I do), so be sure to change the oil before starting it up again.
Quote from: TGP Nick
Everything came off pretty easily, but one minor setback did take place. I was unbolting the coolant pipe from the top of the water pump and the head on one of the bolts snapped off.
I was thinking about removing the waterpump housing, but it appears to be one very big piece alongside the engine... is this easy to remove or no? I was also wondering if it is fairly easy to remove the aluminum motor mount mounted on the left side of the engine, by the waterpump.
The water pump housing is built into the timing cover. I would attempt to extract the bolt or drill it out before pulling the entire timing cover. Did it break off even with the bolt hole? If worse comes to worse, it isn't real bad to pull the cover though. I broke off one of those bolts in my black TGP and extracted it with bolt extractor set(easy out). Use the largest one that can go in the bolt. If you use one of the smaller ones, you're likely going to break the easy out and then you're stuck with an even bigger problem(they're hard to drill through). If you use a bolt extractor, try to keep it as straight as possible.
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 14, 2008, 09:21:19 PM
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 14, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
There was a bit of coolant left in the LIM when I took it off.. is this something to worry about if any coolant gets into the cylinders? All the intake valves appear to be closed, but I'm just wondering.
Some coolant probably splashed into the engine valley too(a little bit does on some LIM jobs I do), so be sure to change the oil before starting it up again.
Whew thats a big sigh of relef for me. Thank you.
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 14, 2008, 09:21:19 PM
The water pump housing is built into the timing cover. I would attempt to extract the bolt or drill it out before pulling the entire timing cover. Did it break off even with the bolt hole? If worse comes to worse, it isn't real bad to pull the cover though. I broke off one of those bolts in my black TGP and extracted it with bolt extractor set(easy out). Use the largest one that can go in the bolt. If you use one of the smaller ones, you're likely going to break the easy out and then you're stuck with an even bigger problem(they're hard to drill through). If you use a bolt extractor, try to keep it as straight as possible.
There is probably 1/8" of the bolt sticking out, so I'm going to try to grab it with a vice grips and unscrew it like that. I was just curious if the water pump housing was easy to remove, because mine was kinda dirty and I wanted to take it off to clean it. I guess I'm too anal about things being clean :laugh:
Thanks again
If you can get the bolt up even a little, use a cheater to remove the rest of the bolt...worked for me on my alternator bolt that time.
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 14, 2008, 09:33:06 PM
There is probably 1/8" of the bolt sticking out, so I'm going to try to grab it with a vice grips and unscrew it like that. I was just curious if the water pump housing was easy to remove, because mine was kinda dirty and I wanted to take it off to clean it. I guess I'm too anal about things being clean :laugh:
Spray the shit out of the timing cover with a foaming degreaser a few times and then hose it off. It'll take off almost every bit of grease, etc. I'll take some before/after pictures of my degreasing. My red TGP engine is nastyyyyyyyyy from valve cover leaks over the years.
There is a little bit of corrosion on the cover as well, have any tips for taking that off? I'm not sure why there is corrosion there, there isn't any corrosion anywhere else in the engine bay :dunno:
What does the corrosion look like? I've removed some real light corrosion with some barely diluted Castrol degreaser before. The castrol stuff was in the purple bottle. Don't get that stuff on paint unless you really dilute it as it will fade paint. Other than that, I've heard that "aluminum jelly" works well for removing corrosion, oxidation, etc. from aluminum. A few guys with motorcycles that I know have used it on their engines with good results.
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(kx2mud55qbf5ombdbzgtazjf)/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=12042
EDIT: Here's another recommendation from Edelbrock about cleaning cast aluminum.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/pop_cleantips.html
Its pretty light, just a bit of discoloration on the surface. I'll have to get a pic of it the next time I work on it.
I have another question about 1.6 rockers, what do the pushrod guide plates I need to use with the 1.6 rockers look like? I am thinking about buying this set and I'm not sure whether or not they are included:
http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=66405.0
You need the 3X00 guide plates. I believe they are numbered with "P6" and "P7"(4 of them will be P6's and the other two will be P7's) on them. The stock ones are "P3" and "P4" if I remember correctly. If that guy doesn't have any, I could probably get you some soon if you don't have a junkyard nearby. I wanna grab a few things sometime soon from the yards anyway.
Got a shipment of new parts today. I bought an AC Delco replacement for every single sensor that is on this engine. Also upper and lower intake gaskets, valve cover gaskets, TB gasket, oil pan gaskets, new plugs, wire set, EGR filter, and fuel filter. Still waiting for new battery cables and a new O2 sensor connector. Can't believe I still have to buy more parts.. :laugh:
You do realize you are going to have to drop the frame to replace that pan gasket right?........I don't want you to get into it and realize that. If you have an FSM check it out before you start. Also please don't use the rtv they gave you with the valley gasket....that stuff has failed on me before. Get a tube of blue or black permatex and use that instead, throw that stuff in the trash.
Ken
Thanks for the tips! I was planning on dropping the subframe anyway to replace the subframe bolts and bushings, swaybar bushings, and power steering lines.
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 16, 2008, 10:05:13 AM
Thanks for the tips! I was planning on dropping the subframe anyway to replace the subframe bolts and bushings, swaybar bushings, and power steering lines.
No problem, if you are replacing the front bar bushings let me make a few more suggestions. If you live near or go to a junk yard get the 34mm front sway bar out of a cutlass convertible, z34 (I think) or GTP. Also if buying new bushings get the thermoplastic ones from Moog at rockauto.com. Get the frame bushings and the end link bushings. Also if you get the 34mm bar from the yard make sure to get the frame reinforcement that holds the bar in, you will see what I mean when you get it. Most of the time if you find a TDC w-body in the yard the frame has been pulled for the engine and the bar is easy to get. Thats how I got mine. Oh and when replacing the end links to the bar they are hard to get the bolts out because of clearance to the CV boot. A 13mm ratchet wrench is a must to get them out without removing the CV joint from the trans. Hope this helps and good luck!
Ken
I've heard that the stock TGP bar is better though, because it is solid. I think it is smaller than a 3.4 bar, but the 3.4 bars are hollow, kinda defeating the purpose of swapping in a different bar over the TGP's solid bar, which should be more rigid. I could be completely wrong on this, just something I read on W-body.
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 16, 2008, 11:05:03 AM
I've heard that the stock TGP bar is better though, because it is solid. I think it is smaller than a 3.4 bar, but the 3.4 bars are hollow, kinda defeating the purpose of swapping in a different bar over the TGP's solid bar, which should be more rigid. I could be completely wrong on this, just something I read on W-body.
I know what your saying Nick and if I was looking at it for the first time I would think the same. Being a mechanical engineer I have some knowledge that makes me think otherwise. Basically just because it is hollow does not make it weaker (weaker meaning subject to more deflection, twist due to torsion under hard cornering) than the solid bar because when you do the math out as you get closer and closer to the center of the bar (neutral axis as it is called in engineering speak) the torsional deflection reduces which means the solid part of the bar is not contributing that much to the stiffness of the bar. Thats why you can get away with a hollow bar because the larger outer diameter is really the larger portion of the bars ability to withstand greater torsional load and thus deflects less under equal loading. It has to do with the polar moments of inertia. Now I have not done the math out for a solid tgp bar versus a hollow 34 mm bar so I don't know for sure which is stiffer, but I know that 34 mm bar was a good deal larger in OD than my stock solid 88 SE bar which warrented the change in my mind without doing all the theory out on paper. For you guys it might be different. Just trying to help shed some light on this stuff, just because it is hollow does not necessarily mean it is weak it very well could be stronger and lighter.
In either case if you have not bought bushings yet those blue moog bushings are very nice and will help tighten up the front end a bit. Have fun!
Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on April 16, 2008, 12:46:45 PM
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 16, 2008, 11:05:03 AM
I've heard that the stock TGP bar is better though, because it is solid. I think it is smaller than a 3.4 bar, but the 3.4 bars are hollow, kinda defeating the purpose of swapping in a different bar over the TGP's solid bar, which should be more rigid. I could be completely wrong on this, just something I read on W-body.
I know what your saying Nick and if I was looking at it for the first time I would think the same. Being a mechanical engineer I have some knowledge that makes me think otherwise. Basically just because it is hollow does not make it weaker (weaker meaning subject to more deflection, twist due to torsion under hard cornering) than the solid bar because when you do the math out as you get closer and closer to the center of the bar (neutral axis as it is called in engineering speak) the torsional deflection reduces which means the solid part of the bar is not contributing that much to the stiffness of the bar. Thats why you can get away with a hollow bar because the larger outer diameter is really the larger portion of the bars ability to withstand greater torsional load and thus deflects less under equal loading. It has to do with the polar moments of inertia. Now I have not done the math out for a solid tgp bar versus a hollow 34 mm bar so I don't know for sure which is stiffer, but I know that 34 mm bar was a good deal larger in OD than my stock solid 88 SE bar which warrented the change in my mind without doing all the theory out on paper. For you guys it might be different. Just trying to help shed some light on this stuff, just because it is hollow does not necessarily mean it is weak it very well could be stronger and lighter.
In either case if you have not bought bushings yet those blue moog bushings are very nice and will help tighten up the front end a bit. Have fun!
Ken
english please?... lol
Quote from: cobracmdr on April 16, 2008, 05:22:22 AM
You do realize you are going to have to drop the frame to replace that pan gasket right?........I don't want you to get into it and realize that. If you have an FSM check it out before you start. Also please don't use the rtv they gave you with the valley gasket....that stuff has failed on me before. Get a tube of blue or black permatex and use that instead, throw that stuff in the trash.
Ken
Funny you say that.. I opened that tube of RTV that came with the LIM gasket and it was completely solid. I slit the tube down the side and pulled out a huge piece of solid rubber lol . So that stuff is completely useless :laugh:
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 14, 2008, 10:18:33 PM
You need the 3X00 guide plates. I believe they are numbered with "P6" and "P7"(4 of them will be P6's and the other two will be P7's) on them. The stock ones are "P3" and "P4" if I remember correctly. If that guy doesn't have any, I could probably get you some soon if you don't have a junkyard nearby. I wanna grab a few things sometime soon from the yards anyway.
I sent you a PM, Matt.
Quote from: mfewtrail on April 14, 2008, 09:39:17 PM
Quote from: TGP Nick on April 14, 2008, 09:33:06 PM
There is probably 1/8" of the bolt sticking out, so I'm going to try to grab it with a vice grips and unscrew it like that. I was just curious if the water pump housing was easy to remove, because mine was kinda dirty and I wanted to take it off to clean it. I guess I'm too anal about things being clean :laugh:
Spray the shit out of the timing cover with a foaming degreaser a few times and then hose it off. It'll take off almost every bit of grease, etc. I'll take some before/after pictures of my degreasing. My red TGP engine is nastyyyyyyyyy from valve cover leaks over the years.
I agree, I used foaming degreaser on the turbo intake pipes cuz of my turbo oil seal leaking and they were perfectly clean. that stuff eats the bad grime off real well :icon_mrgreen:
UPDATE
Ok so I got my 1.6 rockers and guide plates today (courtesy Matt F. Thanks!) and started work on the TGP again today.
I put the 1.6 rockers in my bucket of Berryman's Chem dip and that seems to have cleaned them very well.
I also removed my stock rockers and pushrods. Some of the lifters were a bit sticky, but everything looked good in there.
I purchased a tube of "GM Engine Sealant" part number 88861417 from my local GM dealer and the parts manager said he strongly recommends using it for the intakes on our cars. Anyone here used it before? I'd imagine its good stuff, since it was likely used when the cars were built in the factory.
I have another question- would it hurt anything if I soaked my pushrods and lifters in my Berryman's Chem Dip? They are a bit gummed up and I would like to clean them up.
Also, just out of curiosity, what would be involved if I decided to pull my heads off at this point? Pretty simple? Just curious.
Thanks
Upon closer inspection, my lifters ALL have flat spots along the sides.. on each lifter, there is one heavy flat spot, and some of them have a very light flat spot to them.. I noticed that a few of the lifters were very hard to pull from the engine, while most of them just popped out. Does this mean that my lifters are bad, or are they supposed to have a flat spot on them?
Being that I'm this far along, with all the intakes and valvetrain pulled off, how hard would it be to pull the heads at this point? What else would I have to do to get them off? I'm debating whether or not I should pull the heads since I have it torn down this far. I've noticed also that compared to engines I've worked on in the past, this engine hasn't been very difficult to work with.. actually its been pretty nice! :icon_cool:
Update
Car is back together now, I am just waiting for my alternator to get redone at the local alt shop.. it was going, so I figured I will fix it now.
I have a question, when I put my new lifters in, I just soaked them in oil and oiled up the bores where the pushrods sit in the block really well, and put it together like that. Someone on W-body said I should have put assembly lube on the lifters instead, and since I didn't, he thinks I should tear the thing down again and lube the lifters up with assembly lube. Is this really necessary? Or will it be fine with oil on them?
Any help is appreciated, I would like to have it running in the next few days when I get my alternator back.
Thanks!
I have installed a set without the lube... but the lifter were kind of new at the time, not 100% new. They were taken out shortly after install (at that time lube was used) , but the second time around they were just soaked in some rotella. Still going strong in that engine.
Should have used assembly lube because the lifter needs to wear in on the cam lobes. I dunno I'm sure it will work you just take a few miles off the lifter.
Ken
Disable the cars ecm and crank it over a few times till you think it got some oil pressure, then it wont be dry at least when you start it.
Prospeeder where have you been hiding at? You've been absent for quite a while.
Quote from: Prospeeder on May 22, 2008, 03:22:38 PM
Disable the cars ecm and crank it over a few times till you think it got some oil pressure, then it wont be dry at least when you start it.
That's the route I would take as well rather than tearing it back down. You might want to throw some GM EOS(engine oil supplement) in the oil as an extra precaution.
Quote from: mfewtrail on May 22, 2008, 10:02:38 PM
Quote from: Prospeeder on May 22, 2008, 03:22:38 PM
Disable the cars ecm and crank it over a few times till you think it got some oil pressure, then it wont be dry at least when you start it.
That's the route I would take as well rather than tearing it back down. You might want to throw some GM EOS(engine oil supplement) in the oil as an extra precaution.
I will do that. The local dealership said EOS is just a assembly lube in a jar though, not a pourable liquid..
Quote from: TGP Nick on May 23, 2008, 10:52:43 AM
I will do that. The local dealership said EOS is just a assembly lube in a jar though, not a pourable liquid..
As usual, they don't know what the hell they're talking about...unless they call their standard assembly lube "EOS" also. The EOS I was referring to is a pourable additive. See the link below for part #.
http://www.sdparts.com/product/88862586/GMEngineOilSupplimentEOS16ozBottle.aspx
LOL that doesn't surprise me. So I just put in the EOS, crank her over without the fuel pump fuse in, put fuse in and start it up and hold it at 2000-2500 RPM for 20 minutes, then what? Can I leave it in there until my next oil change? Or do I have to change it out right away?
I would use it for your break-in period, and then change it out. I think it's meant to be a break-in aid rather than an actual additive(at least, that's what I was told the last time I bought some). *Some* people do use it as an additive though.
Ok so I added the EOS, filled it up with coolant, and finished installing the rest of the parts.
At 8:30 PM here, I pulled the fuel pump/ECM fuse and cranked it over a few times. Then I re-installed the fuse and cranked it over, she fired right up.
It ran fantastic for about five minutes, then it just SHUT OFF! It was like I turned the key off, the car just died like that. I tried to start it again, but it just cranks and cranks, and cranks. Sounds good, but does not start! The car did this to me last fall before I put it away, but it would always re-start right away.. now it is completely dead in my garage..
It has ALL new sensors, gaskets and fluids, and the fuses by the ECM all check out good. It isn't throwing any codes either.
Any ideas??
fuel pump??
I'd check that fuse you pulled, possibly tap on the ECM to see if thats gone, how about the crank sensor, is it new? Fuel pump priming?
Fuel pump does prime, but it sounds weaker than when my SE primes.. there is some fuel pressure at the rail, but not a ton.. still enough that it should run though...
CPS is brand new. This is the first time it has run with any of the new sensors.
The ECM fuse is good, I just went and checked.
I would check the fuel pressure & check to see if you have spark.
make sure you have at least 40 psi fuel pressure.
second checking the pressure in the rail with the key on at least 40psi and it should stay at 40 for a few minutes even when you turn off the key.......also.......did you replace the coils and module? If not you might want to try that.........that module can really fuck things up and has burned me on more than a few occasions.
Ken
hey nick, I got a few extra coils and other shit I could bring with me tonight if you want to check other things leme know.
I need to find someone that has a fuel pressure tester first.
The only things I did NOT replace were the ICM and coils.
Where are you guys located? Are you both in upstate NY? I'm in binghamton if you ever need help.
Ken
I found that having a fuel pressure tester is a good thing to have lying around, especially when working on these older Gm vehicles. I got a tester from Advance I think for around $30-$40, used it at least 6 times so it's paid for itself.
The best thing to do would be just to pull a plug and attach the wire, hold it with something insulated near metal and see if the spark jumps. If not, then you know its electrical. Or just go ahead and get a FP tester.
Does is sputter or try to run at all? If it doesn't then first check for spark. Good luck.
I should mention that its a good idea to pull that fuel pump fuse when you do that. If you have spark then its time to test fuel. It's a good idea to check more than one plug though, in fact pull all three of the fronts individually and see what it does.
It does not sputter or anything.
I am in MN.
Nick...just a thought..you did check to make sure both ICM plugs are plugged in? I know it sounds stupid, but my CS quit on me last year out of the blue and it would not start...after searching around, realized the bottom plug on the ICM had worked itself loose....
sounds stupid, I know, but just an idea!
Alright got home and checked it for spark.. no spark at the plugs.
Then I pulled of each brand new spark plug wire and there is no spark at the coils either. None of the coils have spark.
What am I looking at now?
either the ECM or CS is bad, or the ICM has failed. The easiest way to rule out the other two is to remove the ICM, take it to advance or autozone or a similar shop and have them test it for you. The price is around $125 I think for a new module. If you have a known good spare then swap it in and see if it fixes it.
EDIT:
IIRC there are three electrical connections for the ICM, two on the left side, 1 on the right, this POV would be looking at the engine bay. So 2 plugs on the passenger side, 1 on the drivers side of the coil asm. The easiest way to remove that asm is to remove the 3 13mm bolts and take the coils/ICM out as a complete unit. Easier to install than messing around with 7/32" bolts that hold the coils onto that bracket. There are 3 bolts that hold that asm to the block, one each on the sides and one underneath. Make sure to disconnect the negative terminal as a precaution.
Alright thanks. I'll attempt to remove the ICM now and bring it to O'reilly's.
Also do yourself a favor, after you get that icm out the bottom bolt is a bitch to get back in. Take the icm bracket and at the lower bolt slot it, that is cut it all the way through with a hack saw so you can slide it onto the bottom bolt that you can prethread into the block. This makes installing and removing the icm much easier as you can thread the bottom bolt on before you put the icm on then slide the icm bracket onto the bolt, install the top two bolts and then tighten the bottom. Once you take it off you will know what I mean
Ken
Well I am leavin in a couple hours, I think I have an ICM in the garage, gotta check to make sure, if I can find it I will bring it with me.
the ICM is the piece the coils connect to right?
That's a damn good idea Ken. However if you survey the board, of the people that have removed that assembly 90% of them never even reinstalled that bottom bolt. :laugh:
ok is this what you need?? I don't know if it works, it came with a bunch of stuff I bought off a member a few months back.
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/Meltboy1/DSC00447.jpg)
that is the module. Yeah ryan I figured most people dont put that bottom bolt back in.......probably dont need it anyways :icon_rolleyes:
Ken
I can't for the life of me get that bottom bolt out. I can see it from underneath the car, but I just can not get my socket on it from that angle. So I will be pulling the starter off later to get that bolt out... gives me an excuse to put in the new 3400 starter and cables anyway :laugh:
I don't see why you guys have so much trouble with that bolt. I even reinstall the lower one. ;) I used a 1/4'' drive ratchet, a small extension, and a swivel last time IIRC.
I went and got a brand new ICM from O'Reilly's for $80 with a lifetime warranty. Its the only non- AC Delco part on the car
I'll be re-installing the lower bolt when I put mine in. If I ever have to remove the ICM again, it will be much easier to access with the new smaller starter, much more room to work with down there. :icon_cool:
So.. I put in the brand new ICM and tried to start it... no start.
I checked it for spark and there is no spark at any of the coils.
Now what???
Could the CPS be bad already? It is brand new and has 5 minutes running time on it. Brand new AC Delco parts.
did you check for codes, maybe one of the new sensors was defective
Yes I checked for codes and there are none.
I just put in another brand new CPS and I STILL have no spark... what could possibly be wrong with this thing now?
Broken wire in the harness.
I swapped out the Hot Tune chip for the stock one and that didn't fix it either.
Anyone think this is a possible dead ECM?
It could be a broken wire for the module, could also be the computer. You do have the ECM fuse in right? check to make sure it is not broken, it is in the black box on the drivers side of the engine compartment by the cruise control.
Yes, the ECM fuse is good. The wires by the ECM looked fine too.
where does the car sit during the winter months? Is it possible you have something shorted from animals chewing on them or something?
We will definitely know where we stand with it, once you get that ECM from Krenz :icon_cool:
It sat (and is still sitting) in a big quanset hut for 7 months now. There aren't any animals or rodents in there though.
I replaced all the coils with known good ones from my neighbor's 96 Cutlass, and I still have no spark.
Now I am waiting on the ECM.
How do you know you are getting no spark? Did you pull a plug and try to crank it over or something? Check the wiring for the CPS, get a multimeter and check continuity and circuit resistance from each pin on the CPS to the pin on the ECM harness. Also if you are not sure it is spark then you might want to check out your fuel pressure with the key on? or did we already check this :laugh: Further check all your engine fuses to be sure. Does the engine crank and turn over?
Ken
Theres a brittle copper shielded wire in your CS wires, your going to have to peel the tape back and follow it as far as you can, check continuity on that wire, Jud told me long time ago that if that wire breaks, no start.... also the wires that give power to the ICM, 2 pin connector on drivers side of ICM.
Quote from: cobracmdr on June 05, 2008, 05:58:14 AM
How do you know you are getting no spark? Did you pull a plug and try to crank it over or something? Check the wiring for the CPS, get a multimeter and check continuity and circuit resistance from each pin on the CPS to the pin on the ECM harness. Also if you are not sure it is spark then you might want to check out your fuel pressure with the key on? or did we already check this :laugh: Further check all your engine fuses to be sure. Does the engine crank and turn over?
Ken
The issue I am having right now is no spark. I had someone crank it over while I checked spark at the plug, no spark there. I also had someone crank it over while I pulled the wires, one pair at a time, checking for spark at the coils.. no spark there either. This is
not a fuel issue. I checked and rechecked all fuses, they are all good.
The engine cranks and turns over perfectly fine, I just have no spark.
check to see if your getting power to the ICM , should be around 12 volts
Quote from: grandprixagain on June 05, 2008, 05:22:53 PM
check to see if your getting power to the ICM , should be around 12 volts
How do I do this? I know very little about electronics.
Start going through the checklist in the service manual........it will guide you through all the tests to determine what the problem is. Probably your best bet since you are just guessing at this point......you know so you don't replace everything but the problem and spend tons of money on it. If you don't have a service manual you can get them on ebay really cheep.
Ken
the manual says the pink/black wire is the 12V and the black/white wire is the Ground.
Nick, if you don't have a service manual, let me know and I'll scan the no start troubleshooting pages. At this point, your problem should be ECM related OR due to a broken wire/bad connection(at or near the ICM most likely).
Willing to bet the wire connector inside the plug at the sensor pulled out and isn't making connection.
Right time to get a multimeter and learn how to use it. You can get a cheep one for 10 bucks at sears and it will do more than you will ever need for automotive troubleshooting. You basically want to use 12 V setting DC and the continutity check which will beep if the circuit is closed. With those to settings you can check the majority of anything on a car. Good luck and take your time you will find the problem.
Ken
theres 3 connectors on the ICM, the one with 2 wires (driver side) is Power and ground just like jimmy says. I think its mad at you for taking it apart with 50k miles on it? j/k good luck main
I do have an 89 Grand Prix service manual and the two Turbo Grand Prix service manuals.
Krenzy sent me a spare ECM to try, so once I get that, I will swap it in to see if that fixes it.
If not, I'll have to see if I can borrow my neighbor's multimeter and test light.. this is my only car right now, since I sold my SE to Meltboy.
Quote from: TGed on June 06, 2008, 01:36:09 AM
Willing to bet the wire connector inside the plug at the sensor pulled out and isn't making connection.
Where exactly are you talking about? The CPS?
Thanks a lot guys :thumb:
CPS.
You said that every sensor is brand new , sure you plugged everything back in?
Positive. It ran perfectly for 5 minutes and shut off. All sensors are plugged in.
thats not to say that something didn't get shaken lose and fell out in those 5 min...
Well I was able to get ahold of a test light today and checked some stuff out.
I tested the connector that connects to the driver's side of the ICM and I am getting power to my ICM. :icon_idea:
I tried testing the plug that connects to the CPS (not sure if there is any power fed to the sensor or not..) and it didn't light up when I stuck the test light in the CPS wiring connector.
Can someone tell me what this means? :laugh:
Nick - the ones you're looking at getting have them so you are good to go.
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 10, 2008, 06:54:58 PM
Well I was able to get ahold of a test light today and checked some stuff out.
I tested the connector that connects to the driver's side of the ICM and I am getting power to my ICM. :icon_idea:
I tried testing the plug that connects to the CPS (not sure if there is any power fed to the sensor or not..) and it didn't light up when I stuck the test light in the CPS wiring connector.
Can someone tell me what this means? :laugh:
Thats good you have power , there is a plug on the passenger side of the ICM, that runs to your CPS, switch your multimeter to OHMs, it should go to 0 when you touch the probes together indicating continuity, Unplug the CPS harness from the sensor and from the ICM and check continuity of each wire from end to end, careful, there is a 3rd wire that doesnt run all the way to the CPS its copper (very brittle) and sheilded, if that breaks the car wont start, peel back the tape on the CPS side of the harness and youll see it, check continuity of that wire to the ICM... hopefully someone else in here knows what im talkin about... IIRC the cps only gets signal when the starter is cranking or engine is running.
Quote from: grandprixagain on June 11, 2008, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 10, 2008, 06:54:58 PM
Well I was able to get ahold of a test light today and checked some stuff out.
I tested the connector that connects to the driver's side of the ICM and I am getting power to my ICM. :icon_idea:
I tried testing the plug that connects to the CPS (not sure if there is any power fed to the sensor or not..) and it didn't light up when I stuck the test light in the CPS wiring connector.
Can someone tell me what this means? :laugh:
Thats good you have power , there is a plug on the passenger side of the ICM, that runs to your CPS, switch your multimeter to OHMs, it should go to 0 when you touch the probes together indicating continuity, Unplug the CPS harness from the sensor and from the ICM and check continuity of each wire from end to end, careful, there is a 3rd wire that doesnt run all the way to the CPS its copper (very brittle) and sheilded, if that breaks the car wont start, peel back the tape on the CPS side of the harness and youll see it, check continuity of that wire to the ICM... hopefully someone else in here knows what im talkin about... IIRC the cps only gets signal when the starter is cranking or engine is running.
I know what you are talking about, Nick if it is not clear get out the service manual and look up how to trouble shoot the CPS or the ICM is should give you a detailed step by step procedure for checking all functionality.
Ike I don't think he has a multimeter more a logic probe or test light, Nick get a cheep multimeter at autozone or something they are like 10 bucks it is a must for electrical troubleshooting. Good luck and follow what the book says.
Ken
I swapped in a good ECM and there is still no change.
We are now looking at a wiring problem... I hate electronics.
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 23, 2008, 12:09:37 PM
I swapped in a good ECM and there is still no change.
We are now looking at a wiring problem... I hate electronics.
just use the wire that you have at your place and re-use the stock connectors. (but replace all the wiring between the ICM and the CPS)
Quote from: Bullet on June 25, 2008, 09:18:52 AM
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 23, 2008, 12:09:37 PM
I swapped in a good ECM and there is still no change.
We are now looking at a wiring problem... I hate electronics.
just use the wire that you have at your place and re-use the stock connectors. (but replace all the wiring between the ICM and the CPS)
Guys guys guys what are you talking about? Replacing wiring when you don't know it is bad? your just introducing more problems and variation into the system. Please somebody back me up on this one, Nick seriously you are going to beat yourself if you start cutting and splicing with no idea why it won't run. You have to get a multimeter and follow the book and start troublshooting in a logical manner what could be malfunctioning, CPS could be, ICM harness could be it, but you need a multimeter to test and verify the units are getting power, ground or outputting a signal. The manual will tell you exactly how to test each part without chopping up the wire harness.
Randomly replacing shit is a real redneck way to fix a car.....testing and troubleshooting is a techincal a sophisicated way of solving the problem without spending a ton of money. In the end this way will save you a lot of frustration.
Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on June 25, 2008, 09:44:00 AM
Randomly replacing shit is a real redneck way to fix a car.....testing and troubleshooting is a techincal a sophisicated way of solving the problem without spending a ton of money. In the end this way will save you a lot of frustration.
He's got a good point. I went through that process when my TGP was acting up. 9 months of replacing "maybe this is bad" parts, and it turned out to be something simple...all it took was an electrical genius 2 hours to figure it out.
Are there any electrical geniuses in MN? I've done everything I can to try to figure this out, and with this electrical stuff, I am just taking a stab into the dark. I'm ready to hand this to someone else, because I obviously have no clue what I am doing when it comes to electrical.
have you ever thought of bringing it to a GM dealership.. I hate to suggest that, but I gotta agree with ken on this one, you don't wanna start fixing shit that aint broke, that's a good way to break something... lol
I called the local GM dealership yesterday and they want $200 just to take a look at it..
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 25, 2008, 11:36:31 AM
I called the local GM dealership yesterday and they want $200 just to take a look at it..
don't do it!!!!
I hope you don't do it, they wont be able to actually tell you exactly what it is, they'll just say the "we think it's the..." or "It could be the"
and then $200 dollars wasted.
I'm sorry but I've swarn of all dealerships. If one of my cars had something wrong with it and it had a warranty I'd still try to keep them away from dealers...I've just had all bad experiences with everybody who's worked on my cars except me. sorry but I just needed to vent that out.
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 25, 2008, 11:28:17 AM
Are there any electrical geniuses in MN? I've done everything I can to try to figure this out, and with this electrical stuff, I am just taking a stab into the dark. I'm ready to hand this to someone else, because I obviously have no clue what I am doing when it comes to electrical.
Find a good repair shop or electrical technician or electrical engineer to help you. I'm sure they can help you test the systems on the car. Any good modern repair shop will be able to fix this for you if you are willing to pay. I wish I could help more but unless I'm there I can't do much for you other than tell you to start reading up on basic electrical theory for automotive applications, and read up on how to use a multimeter. It is really not all that complicated.......you have voltage usually 12 DC (from the battery) Ground and signal (depending on the sensor could be 5 DC)
Learn how to check DC voltage, resistance, continuity and that is it.
Ken
we'll we do know that everything worked before all the sensors were changed, right.
so that tells you that you have something's not making its connection, you just have to
find it.
if your going to start at the CPS then simply take the connector off completely, cause its prolly bad anyway
and wire it straight (wire to wire) this elliminates the possible bad connection
and only do this to the ones that you have disconnected untill you find the bad one
my knock sensor connector was bad, and this is the process I took to locate it.
hope it helps you as well.
But he said it ran fine for about 10 minutes before it mysteriously died.
So all the sensors had to be working fine for atleast that period of time, right? Not a bad suggestion though, Jimmy. Definately a free method!
Let us know what you find Nick,
when you put the upper motor mount bracket back on you probably pinched some wires down behind where the AC compressor bolts on, thats right where the CPS wires and Oil pressure sender wires are- if any of those wires got pinched and got "grounded" out, your probably not going to run or start. Another thing to consider, if the oil sending unit wires got pinched, your fuel pump will not prime or run because the ECM will thing theres NO oil in it. This has happend and you wouldnt be the first. My buddy did a Lower intake manifold gaset on his brothers 3100, all the electrical harness were ziptied all fancy for some reason, well, he snipped the CPS harness right in half thinking it was a ziptie, didnt even notice, he gets done and calls me up , hey i really need you up here my brothers gonna kill me, the car just cranks and cranks i dont know what i did... i get there, no spark, i finally see the CPS wires cut in half(ICM was on top) , got out the electric tape and cutters out, had the thing running in 5 minutes...good thing his buddy was a 3.1 guy... saved that kids ass that day.
Quote from: grandprixagain on June 25, 2008, 10:22:02 PM
when you put the upper motor mount bracket back on you probably pinched some wires down behind where the AC compressor bolts on, thats right where the CPS wires and Oil pressure sender wires are- if any of those wires got pinched and got "grounded" out, your probably not going to run or start. Another thing to consider, if the oil sending unit wires got pinched, your fuel pump will not prime or run because the ECM will thing theres NO oil in it. This has happend and you wouldnt be the first. My buddy did a Lower intake manifold gaset on his brothers 3100, all the electrical harness were ziptied all fancy for some reason, well, he snipped the CPS harness right in half thinking it was a ziptie, didnt even notice, he gets done and calls me up , hey i really need you up here my brothers gonna kill me, the car just cranks and cranks i dont know what i did... i get there, no spark, i finally see the CPS wires cut in half(ICM was on top) , got out the electric tape and cutters out, had the thing running in 5 minutes...good thing his buddy was a 3.1 guy... saved that kids ass that day.
x2
and good thing you picked up or he would've been screwed...lol
UPDATE
As of 4:00 PM, my TGP runs again!!
My neighbor knows a bit about electrical and had some electrical testing equipment, and we traced it to the CPS-to-ICM wire harness. We found that the wires had gotten pinched behind my alternator bracket and that was shorting it out. We cut out the bad pieces of wire, soldered in new wires, re-wrapped it, taped it, and put it back in the plastic wire coupler. After that, we put it together and she fired right up.
I finally got to drive the car around today. The motor sounds so much better now, much quieter and runs very smoothly. I still need to put in my new sparkplugs and new O2 sensor, but it is running great nevertheless.
With the new valvetrain parts, I didn't want to get on her too hard until its broken in, but I can already tell it has a LOT more power than before. The most I got on it today was about 1/4 throttle. This is also the first time I have ever heard my turbo spool :icon_eek: Up until now, I had the stock TGP intake on it, and if I was lucky on a nice day, I could hear the turbo at WOT at 7 psi.. I didn't always get to hear the faint whistle :laugh: I love the intake noise it has now.. Now I have a K&N X-Stream filter on the turbo, and I have my Gen 1 DSM BOV on there. I can't wait until she's all broken in so I can try it out at full boost and hear that BOV! :icon_twisted:
Whew I'm excited!
The only problem that came up while I was driving it today was that code 14 kept coming up. The coolant temp sensors are plugged in, so maybe I have a bad sensor. I will have to take another look at it tomorrow. I was too excited to drive it to take a look at it today :laugh:
Thanks for standing by me with this guys. :icon_cool:
Glad ya' got it fixed. ;) Going from the stock intake to a K&N makes a huge difference in sound. :icon_mrgreen:
Damn good to hear it, :icon_biggrin:
Kick ass, Nick!!!! Glad to hear you got it back up and running. One of my guesses was right it seems! I thought the wires were being pinched....or maybe you suggested it to me and I agreed but either way I believed it lol. Damn glad it's running.
NOW....when I come back up there I wanna ride in that beast! Maybe I'll be sporting a new car by then!
well it's about damn time... lol
good for you, glad it's runnin, and even more glad it was something stupid that didn't really cost ya!
YAY!!!! :icon_mrgreen: :cheers:
hopefully working with your neighbor helped you learn a few things about troubleshooting/electrical repair. It won't be as hard the second time now...
Ken
NICE
Quote from: cobracmdr on June 27, 2008, 11:46:09 AM
hopefully working with your neighbor helped you learn a few things about troubleshooting/electrical repair. It won't be as hard the second time now...
Ken
Lets hope there isn't a second time.. lol
Quote from: TGP Nick on June 27, 2008, 05:33:21 PM
Quote from: cobracmdr on June 27, 2008, 11:46:09 AM
hopefully working with your neighbor helped you learn a few things about troubleshooting/electrical repair. It won't be as hard the second time now...
Ken
Lets hope there isn't a second time.. lol
X2
but god forbid if there is you know where to get the help from... :icon_mrgreen:
Update
I now have ~230 miles on it. Yesterday I put in new AC Delco R42LTS plugs gapped at ~.028-.030" and replaced my O2 sensor with a new AC Delco O2. While I was taking the old plugs out, I did a compression test on all the cylinders and they are all right about 160 PSI. What kind of compression should these engines have?
I'm trying to sort out the last couple issues the car has right now, and a new one popped up a couple days ago. As soon as I start up the car, there is a whining/groaning noise coming from the drivers side of the car.. it almost sounds like it is coming from the turbo. The turbo is fairly new, replaced in 2006 and has ~6,000 miles on it. I know it is probably hard to diagnose this noise just from the above info, but any ideas on what could be making this noise?
Also, another thing I have noticed is: as soon as I start the car, the intercooler fan starts up right away and runs constantly until I shut the car off. I have no codes and I am now running Kenny's Hot Tune chip. Is the chip programmed to make the IC fan run constantly?
Nick, the groaning noise you're hearing could just be your brake pump cycling.
it happened with my TSTE.
Quote from: Bullet on July 04, 2008, 09:54:52 AM
Nick, the groaning noise you're hearing could just be your brake pump cycling.
it happened with my TSTE.
It isn't the PMIII cycling. The pump turns on and off like it is supposed to. This noise almost sounds like a groaning/whining noise a dying transmission makes.. It sounds like its coming from the turbo though. When I take a screwdriver and put it on the exhaust housing of the turbo and put my ear on the screwdriver, I can kinda hear the noise.
Maybe your turbo's going bad already? Bad shaft? Remember noises tend to travel throughout the engine bay, expecially in the exhuast.
Quote from: grinders_18 on July 04, 2008, 03:22:01 PM
Maybe your turbo's going bad already? Bad shaft? Remember noises tend to travel throughout the engine bay, expecially in the exhuast.
I agree, you should make a quick video if at all possible.
I still think it could be a bad shaft. I've heard what one sounds like but I'd need to hear yours to confirm it.
Alright I took a few vids of it today, but my cell has kinda shitty sound quality.
While doing this, I noticed something.. I kneeled down next to the drivers side front wheel and the noise was pretty loud here. Sitting there, the noise almost sounded like an on and off grinding noise.. Kinda sounds like the turbo to me.. :icon_cry:
What do you guys think?
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j195/blackswift99/Misc%20TGP%20pics/th_Video015.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j195/blackswift99/Misc%20TGP%20pics/?action=view¤t=Video015.flv)
Another vid I took..
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j195/blackswift99/Misc%20TGP%20pics/th_Video017.jpg) (http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j195/blackswift99/Misc%20TGP%20pics/?action=view¤t=Video017.flv)
Not really sure what to tell you from those vids Nick. It might be best to save some money and take it to a GM shop so they can tell you. And until you figure it out, I highly recommend NOT driving it.
I'm really leaning toward bad turbo now. I will be bringing it to the local GM dealer tomorrow and have a mechanic listen to it (so many turbodiesel trucks around here, they should know what a bad turbo sounds like).
I have a couple other issues with the car right now also.
1. If I give it WOT, the car will rev until it hits fuel cut (6,212 RPM) before it ever shifts. I have to let off the gas for it to shift. This happens in any gear, whether it is the 1-2 shift or the 2-3 shift. I have adjusted the TV cable a few times now with no change. I should also add that last year, the car had no problem shifting at WOT; last year I hooked up a scangauge and verified that it shifted at 5,200 RPM at WOT.
2. Whenever I put the car into reverse, it SLAMS into reverse really hard. With it doing this, it does NOT slam into drive. It shifts into drive nicely. I have made sure that all my vacuum lines are connected and there are no leaks.
What do you guys think?
have you pulled the intake off to check the shaft play in the turbo? does it spin freely, that being if you spin it with your hand it should go a few rotations before coming to a rest. Oil in the intake? these are some basic checks you can do to make sure it is ok.
Ken
Check your oil drain hose, make sure it's not kinked.
Check your tailpipes for any kind of "mud" inside them.
Like cobracmdr said, check the intercooler tubes for oil. Also, if the shaft spins freely, does it hit the sides of the turbine housing?
There is little shaft play in it when cold and no play when hot. The shaft spins freely. Ever since I got the car, there has always been a light coating of oil in the intake, not much, but a tiny bit of oil. The car never has burnt any oil. Oil drain hose is new and not kinked. The car does not smoke at all. The tailpipes are clean and dry.
I noticed that if I push on the shaft, it will hit the wall slightly. Other than that and the noise, it seems to work okay. According to my boost gauge, the turbo spools up very quickly and hits 14 PSI easily.
I'm going to see if I can get a mechanic to take a look at it today.
you got a new crossover on that thing? I dunno nick but stick with it you will get through it! You have made some good progress so far.
Ken
Yes, the car has a Jeff M. crossover I refinished and put on last year.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j195/blackswift99/My%20TGP%20Projects/TGP002.jpg)
UPDATE
I just stopped by the local GM dealership and had a mechanic come out and take a look at it.
Bad news: he said that it sounds like my turbo bearings are on their way out. He said "it will be fine to drive it, but it will probably go very soon, and when it does, the turbo will lock up and the car will smoke a lot."
It was funny when he was checking out my car, another mechanic walked up and checked out the car, he left for about 15 seconds and four other people came out and checked out the car. :laugh: I had just polished and waxed and put paint sealant on the car yesterday, so she's pretty shiny right now. So I got a lot of compliments from all the people at the dealer. :icon_lol:
We love impressing people, especially the ones at the GM dealerships :cheers:
So.... its time for a new turbo. I would like something that will bolt up with little to no modification (unless its worth it ;) ) What is out there that you guys recommend? A buddy of mine knows a guy that can get hands on almost any turbo inexpensively. GTR2871? T3? T3/T4? I would definitely want to have a ball bearing turbo to go in there next, unless I can find another T25 for dirt cheap. What do you think? Any input is appreciated!
GT28 IIRC is a very nice turbo upgrade.
If you want a bolt on upgrade without having to do any modiifcations I would talk to flybynite about a disco potato upgrade......of course tuning is going to be required with any turbo upgrade.........have fun:)
Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on July 07, 2008, 07:28:34 PM
If you want a bolt on upgrade without having to do any modiifcations I would talk to flybynite about a disco potato upgrade......of course tuning is going to be required with any turbo upgrade.........have fun:)
Ken
How expensive is it from him? Right now I'm just looking for the models of turbos that work well on our cars so I can buy one cheap off of a friend.
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-033&Category_Code=TBO
What do you guys think about the GT2871R? I remember Kuntzie was running one a while back..
What would I need to do to my car if I threw one of these in? Tune, higher flow injectors, different boost controller, different fuel pump? To the more experienced on here, tell me what I am looking at please. :icon_cool:
See my sig :laugh:. Good tune......really good tune....did I mention tune? Umm you car has to be running correctly to start off with......going to want 28 lb injectors depending on how big you go........boost controller.....walboro 255 pump........I would recommend LC-1 wideband and all the datalogging stuff to get you that good tune.......eventually going to need exhaust work to free it up if you have not done so already......I'm sure there is more. It won't be cheep. I'm not going to tell you what Adam will charge you....I'm just the messenger :) PM him and ask......I'm pretty sure it will be cheeper than that turbo you guys posted up ;) Have fun!
Ken
Ok, switching gears here, I am replacing the vacuum modulator in the TGP now, and the one I bought from O'Reillys is adjustable.. what should I set it to for this transmission?
Quote from: TGP Nick on July 08, 2008, 01:00:19 PM
Ok, switching gears here, I am replacing the vacuum modulator in the TGP now, and the one I bought from O'Reillys is adjustable.. what should I set it to for this transmission?
However you like it.....hard or soft.........just make sure u don't set it so firm that you hear the pump whining as you wind the motor out. Have fun.
Ken
I can rebuild your turbo back to stock specs for $350 shipped back to you. I also can get you a package deal... Injectors, turbo and the tune if you have the $$$$ and the BALLS for 280-300 WHP. :icon_eek: It's all in what you want to do.....
I want 280-300 whp... >.>
Ok well how much money for this 280 - 300 hp turbo, tune and injectors?
What size of turbo? Bolt on? any mods required for 02 sensor location etc?
How big of injectors?
Walbro 255 needed?
You have my interest......
I'm interested, though I wouldn't mark me down for one just yet...PM me all the info, please.
Adam and I have worked closely on my car and I'm probably in that power range right now. Basically he will take your stock T25 and upgrade it to a Disco Potato or T28 ish specs. You can check out the potato on Garretts website :
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2860RS_739548_1.htm
Injectors I'm running are 28 lbs/hr from an LS1. I also have a 255 Walboro. At 12.8 psi I ran a 14.5 - 14.6 with this setup on a hurt motor. I'm expecting very low 14's high 13's with my rebuilt motor/cam and new tune at 16 psi :icon_eek:.
I HIGHLY recommend Adam for this work. He is not only very knowledgable of TGP's but GM tuning and mechanics overall. He has excellent customer communication, timely turn around on his work, an excellent warrentee on all work he does. Not only that but he is going to support you after the sale, which is not something you get with some of the other guys. He has helped me though MANY (lost count ;)) problems with my setup.
Check out his sig.....all his cars he has tuned himself/built including N/A Iroc which is in the 11's in the quarter I suspect.
Ken
Thanks Ken, You pretty much summed it up. Disco potato style turbo + 28lb injectors + 255 walboro + a VERY good tune = a :icon_biggrin: and 280-300whp. PM for more details...
pm sent
Making a bit of headway here...
I pulled off the check valve in front of my transmission, and checked it out.. when you blow into the triangular end, then suck out, there is a valve in there that should close, and it wasn't closing. So I replaced the check valve with a new one and replaced the old tubing down there. I haven't driven the car yet, but it doesn't slam into reverse anymore! Yes!
Beside the turbo issue, the car has been having some other issues lately as well. It has been slamming into reverse (hopefully I just fixed that). It has been starting in 2nd gear a lot lately.. like when I come to a stop light, I have to put it into 1st gear manually with the shifter, or it will try to move forward in 2nd gear for a couple seconds, then decide to downshift into 1st by itself and take off quickly. It is slower than stock right now, as said in the TGP vs. other cars section. Also, anything vacuum operated hasn't been operating correctly in the car. The air will barely come out the intrument panel vents, and the cruise control works, but it loses 1 MPH about every 5 seconds. So I thought I was looking for a major vacuum leak.. I checked out all my vacuum lines, and they appear to be alright, so I went and checked underneath the car, to make sure that the vacuum line was hooked up to the vacuum ball.... The vacuum ball is GONE!! There is just a vacuum line open hanging there and the ball is completely gone :laugh: I guess this explains my mystery flat drivers side front tire last week.. ball must have fallen off, then I ran it over :laugh:
I'm going to run to the JY now and grab a vacuum ball, hopefully this fixes some of the car's issues. Wish me luck!
sorry, but I kinda laughed when I read that... I never heard of the vacuum ball falling off, should be an easy find though... lol
that will fix a majority of your problems more than likely
Blink blink........I had a left REAR flat a few weeks ago........I wonder if my vacumn ball fell off too! hahahah.
Ken
WOW :icon_eek: unbelievable
thats kinda crazy
Yeah it was.. I just kinda looked under the car and it was gone! It was too funny to be mad about. :laugh:
I ran to the jy today and grabbed one outta a 95 GTP for $2. Plugged it in and the car runs and drives much better. Trans is acting completely normal now and the car runs much better.
Also, the humming noise that I thought was the turbo going bad has now disappeared.. it doesn't make any noises anymore. This car is crazy :laugh:
It doesn't want you to buy a Ranger.
Thats too bad, I just bought one today :laugh:
Oh well. It does what its told. Afterall, I put the lotion on its skin.
Sweet nick glad you found the problem(s)!!! It is amazing what a vac leak can do to these cars. My cruise control vac line seems to melt every few months even with heat wrap....I think I need to relocate it.
Six banger stanger rematch now? I would double check your turbu to be sure, check the thrust and radial pay. It should barely move by feel.
Ken
It has a tiny bit of play in it, but that is when its cold, which I've been told is pretty normal of turbochargers with these bearings.
Quote from: TGP Nick on July 22, 2008, 10:32:00 AM
Making a bit of headway here...
I pulled off the check valve in front of my transmission, and checked it out.. when you blow into the triangular end, then suck out, there is a valve in there that should close, and it wasn't closing. So I replaced the check valve with a new one and replaced the old tubing down there. I haven't driven the car yet, but it doesn't slam into reverse anymore! Yes!
Beside the turbo issue, the car has been having some other issues lately as well. It has been slamming into reverse (hopefully I just fixed that). It has been starting in 2nd gear a lot lately.. like when I come to a stop light, I have to put it into 1st gear manually with the shifter, or it will try to move forward in 2nd gear for a couple seconds, then decide to downshift into 1st by itself and take off quickly. It is slower than stock right now, as said in the TGP vs. other cars section. Also, anything vacuum operated hasn't been operating correctly in the car. The air will barely come out the intrument panel vents, and the cruise control works, but it loses 1 MPH about every 5 seconds. So I thought I was looking for a major vacuum leak.. I checked out all my vacuum lines, and they appear to be alright, so I went and checked underneath the car, to make sure that the vacuum line was hooked up to the vacuum ball.... The vacuum ball is GONE!! There is just a vacuum line open hanging there and the ball is completely gone :laugh: I guess this explains my mystery flat drivers side front tire last week.. ball must have fallen off, then I ran it over :laugh:
I'm going to run to the JY now and grab a vacuum ball, hopefully this fixes some of the car's issues. Wish me luck!
I have never heard of a vacuum ball falling off, but I think thats pretty funny
Update
The car has been running pretty well since I found my vacuum leaks and fixed them. It has been feeling somewhat weak during heavy acceleration though.
Did a bit of work on the car today. I pulled the Hot Tune chip out and put in the stock chip, to see if it would make any positive changes, but it didn't, so I put the Hot Tune back in..
I did a fuel pressure test today and I had ~36 PSI at idle, and a wierd thing happened. When the engine was off, key on, it would prime, but then the fuel pump relay would click and it would stop. I was reading ~7 PSI at the rail with just the key on. So I replaced my fuel pump relay with a good one and it would prime up better, but then it would click soon after, and the pressure would spike down to 7 PSI. I had my neighbor looking at the pressure gauge, so I don't know how high of pressure it built. So he was thinking that I might have a bad ground around my fuel pressure relay since it was clicking and not building pressure.. or if that is normal to click like that, he thinks that my fuel pressure regulator may be bad/leaking and sending too much fuel back to the fuel tank.. or maybe my pump is going bad.. I am not sure what is up here. I did pull the vacuum line off the FPR and it was dry.. no fuel is leaking into the vacuum lines.
I took the scan gauge out and went for a drive with it. My 1-2 shift is very good, nice and firm but not jarring, and it looks to shift pretty consistently at 5,120 RPM, the highest I saw was 5,300 at the beginning of the drive. My 2-3 shift however is not good. It will rev out to ~5,050 RPM, then sit there and stutter like it is hitting fuel cut.. I have to let off the gas a bit for it to shift 2-3.
For you tuners out there, I have some questions for you. My block learn moved around.. is this normal? It was 128 for a while (which I thought is normal), then it went up to 131 for a while, then down to 125, then to 121. Also, I went to Knock Retard count on the gauge and it sits at 0* during regular driving, but when I gave it full throttle and went into full boost, it started reading up to 10* and higher.. IIRC it went over 20 once too... I dont know if this is right or not, I was thinking it would go in negative numbers if I was getting knock.. I don't quite understand how that works. Everything else that read on the gauge (that I understood what it was) looked to be okay.
I also did a few 0-60 runs, and I timed a couple of them with a best of 6.6 seconds. It was very humid out with kinda wet roads, and I lost traction for 1-2 seconds and squealed the tires.
The car seems to be running decent, but it just feels weak when you start getting up there in RPM's.. like it isn't getting enough fuel or something. It is very quick if you drive at 1/2 throttle though. What do you guys think?
I should also add that the car has been starting REALLY hard lately- it usually takes 5 cranks or more to get it to fire up.
I still say fuel pump Nick...hopefully others will chime in.
You got new injectors so the only thing left is the fuel pump might have an internal leak and is not holding pressure. Key on fuel pressure should be around 40 psi. Turn the key off and it should hold that pressure for at least 2 minutes and only lose like 2 psi or less of pressure. If it is reading 7psi at key on then you got a leak in the fuel system or the pump is bad...
Let me ask you this if you start it up after driving around it starts pretty good but if you let it cool off or sit overnight it takes forever to start? If so this is more ammunition to replace the fuel pump. Time to get the walboro 255 my friend!
Ken
Quote from: cobracmdr on August 06, 2008, 07:38:16 PM
You got new injectors so the only thing left is the fuel pump might have an internal leak and is not holding pressure. Key on fuel pressure should be around 40 psi. Turn the key off and it should hold that pressure for at least 2 minutes and only lose like 2 psi or less of pressure. If it is reading 7psi at key on then you got a leak in the fuel system or the pump is bad...
Let me ask you this if you start it up after driving around it starts pretty good but if you let it cool off or sit overnight it takes forever to start? If so this is more ammunition to replace the fuel pump. Time to get the walboro 255 my friend!
Ken
That is correct. It starts really hard first thing in the morning, but if I have to shut off the car to say run inside a store for 10 mins, she
usually starts right up when I come out.
So you guys are thinkin fuel pump... my neighbor said the FPR could be leaking and just sending the fuel back to the tank. Anyone else think it might be a bad Fuel Pressure Regulator or no?
Sounds like a fuel pump to me but you could replace both I suppose ;)