I know this sounds VERY weird, but from what my datalogs are showing me and driving around, the STOCK TGP Chip runs better than the JeffM 160 chip in my car :shock:

Okay, the title isn't 100% accurate, BUT, as hard as it is to believe, the stock chip compared ran in almost the exact same conditions ~160* Engine Temp, ~90* Intake temp, on the same road, same procedure, both ran from the WOT shift into 2nd gear to the shift into 3rd gear in the EXACT same amount of time. :?

Okay more info, I have been doing datalogs of the stock chip for comparsion, so I datalog the JeffM chip, and they both showed almost the same MAP readings? Went through 2nd gear in the same amount of time, datamasters "Dyno" thing both show them within 1HP/1TQ of each other?  Oh and if anyone caught my post awhile back about the shuddering in 2nd gear, come to find out, the STOCK chip wasn't shuddering in 2nd gear at all?

I don't really need to go into the other details of it, the JeffM chip has done a great job at leaving 2 nice line of soot out the back of the exhaust....oops....and has a noticably different exhaust smell/tone.  Oh, and cruising down the highway, wow, interesting differences there too....I'm like totaly confused right now about this poor car, it needs to be slapped into shape :lol:

Anyways ideas anyone on why this is happening or what is going on?  I'm am totally lost with what these two datalogs have shown me, and before someone asks, no i'm not dumb enough to take the stock chip out and accidently put it back in thinking its the other chip.

After some confusion, I would like to mention this is in NO WAY saying anything bad about the chip, the chip is provides MUCH greater drivability and didn't die at idle.  I'm placing no blame at all on the chip causing problems, I'm just posting to verify my curiosities, oh and to help get some activity on this board, its kinda slow.  So yeah, sorry for the confusion, I still stand by the chip and support Jeff's work in every way and still have all intentions on getting any turbo upgrades when they come out.  Jeff does do amazing work as everyone else already knows :) 8)

Hey, let?s see what we can find out 8)   I will post some of the same info I sent to you in a PM since the info might help someone else here.

(repeat, sorry), stock chip runs 7.5 psi and mine at 11.8 so if your map/boost is the same then need to find who is holding things back, and might as well contribute to your other issues.  

To list the most common:

1) Plugged cat
2) Plugged/dirty air filter or if air filter is not attached directly to the turbo inlet then the inlet hose to the turbo getting sucked closed a bit.
3) Intake hose loose, any of them but the one at the TB is the bitch, after many years of messing with it by others might also have a split underneath where its hard to see.

And some good things to always do, make sure the proper non-platinum plugs, gapped properly at .040? and looking clean, if not then get-er-done, and if not clean helps lead to there being an issue.  As for more black soot at your tips, found all too often that when an owner gets a performance chip, will be is using that new found performance more than the stock one gave so there is more open-loop/richer running going on that coats the exhaust tips.  If the boost is under computer control (your engine thanks you 8) ) and the boost is shooting up then coming back down then could be knock which is handled by the boost retard feature in our chips too, octane can be an issue easy as its common for gas stations to lie about their octane (quoted to me from a government employee that found 75% failed octane reading stated on their pumps in Detroit Michigan :evil: , ummmm, and why my chips have some conservative settings still in there else: ?BANG?  :wink:  ).  

Well, others can toss in some ideas that relate, I got to get back to work, still have other owners dead working with me to get fixed up, and all the usual :lol: .

Jeff M

Some other ideas and its great you have a scan tool, what are your boosted MAP readings:__________

What does the wastegate duty cycle reading show in your scanner at WOT:__________

Wastegate duty cycle if the boost is too low/lower than the setting in my chip will be 100%.  If it shoots to 100% then drops and drops that is the boost retard from knock happening with over 3 degrees of knocking timing retard occurring for a period of time.

Wastegate should be looked at, hoses, solenoid and lines, actuator. Suck on the line going to the wastegate actuator/can to see if its leaking inside?

Swapping chips will effect final readings till the computer re-learns things, no big deal with the learning, just give it a day to learn your stop and go driving.  Also the full power will not happen until the engine has gotten warm enough.

Check the turbo for hanging/bad bearings, take off the air filter and spin the compressor wheel, should spin some after you let go, hard to see this but if when you try to spin it the wheel feels hard to turn then there is one problem.

That is about all I could think of since I last posted, please give updates to the questions above! thanks!

Jeff M

I was in a red TGP recently with 17K miles on it and rode around in it. It is like a time machine back to 1991 8) .   We took it for a spin around the block flooring it once or twice down a straight road and the thing runs damn near perfect. Everything is stock. never been broken or repaired/messed up by someone ever. Anyway, it brought back memories of when I first got my ride and floored it once or twice before it broke repetitively.  I had to get logged on here and read and read until I got comfortable working on the LG5.

Now that I put 50K on my car and it has 170k miles on it, I can say I totally tell the difference between the stock chip. I get into my car and it is like a rocket ship on crack!

Yeah, I know its not the chip, I remember the very first time I put the chip in after the stock chip when I first got the car and it had the stock engine, the difference was AMAZING!  So I know something just isn't right, I know how the difference is just like everyone else the first time they put the chip in, it makes you almost shit yourself, traction in first gear once it hit boost was non existant, it just isn't like that anymore so I know something is wrong.....I'm heading out to take off the plenum and put it back on and check everything out while I'm at it....

Edit - oh yeah, if anyone is interested, I posted up the datalogs here
http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/datalog/
if anyone wants to see them, sorry they are big.....and long

Stupid question, did you reset the ECM?

Quote from: z284pwrI'm heading out to take off the plenum and put it back on and check everything out while I'm at it....

:shock: how come you got the plenum off? :?  :) While there make sure to ohm out the injectors, 12.2 to 12.4 is what you need to see, if heading down to 11 or less, not good!!

Off to check your logs (long as I don't need a program to run them), I don't mind long ones, more chances to see all what is happening 8)

edit: ".uni" :? That is why I was hoping Davis would run the same scanner as mine, hard to hook up and learn yet another logger program just to read it :roll: Sorry dude, BUT just need the questions way up above answered to be able to help ya:!:

Jeff M

Quote from: Jeff M

Quote from: z284pwrI'm heading out to take off the plenum and put it back on and check everything out while I'm at it....

:shock: how come you got the plenum off? :?  :) While there make sure to ohm out the injectors, 12.2 to 12.4 is what you need to see, if heading down to 11 or less, not good!!

Off to check your logs (long as I don't need a program to run them), I don't mind long ones, more chances to see all what is happening 8)

edit: ".uni" :? That is why I was hoping Davis would run the same scanner as mine, hard to hook up and learn yet another logger program just to read it :roll: Sorry dude, BUT just need the questions way up above answered to be able to help ya:!:

Anyways,
Jeff M

Wow, you don't run Datamaster? That suprised me actually....
http://www.ttspowersystems.com/software/dm3.4.1/8f_Beta/8F-FULL.ZIP
A whole 8 megs :p and very easy to learn

I have the plenum off the check any possible leaks, its easy to take off and I want to make sure everything it looking good.....however, I do have a question, I feel stupid for asking, but how exactly do we check ohms of injectors?  We have always tried this and always failed at it or couldn't figure it out properly, never really had to...never had problems...we though.
Anyways, from the top..
Cat is brand new
Air filter was just cleaned, *K&N you supplied directly on the turbo*
Intake hose didn't appear to have any leaks when I was boost checking it.
Plugs are the proper AC Delcos 42s gapped at .040".  
Soot from exhaust....were talking, sitting at idle in the driveway, there are two large streaks behind both tips, just idling...
Boost is under control yes
Octane, hell, with the EPA loosening the gas restriction thing, who knows?
Boosted MAP readings are are 154.8 kPA at the top of 1st gear wiuh 21.1 * base of advance, no retard and 38.8 WGDC and only about 137.6 kPA at the top of 2nd with 21.8 base* of advance, with 74.9 WGDC no retard, and no knock counts either.  It was only reading 87% throttle though *same with stock*?  The stock datalog showed approx. the same MAP readings except no WG in 1st and 100% in 2nd.  Noting back to a datalog I have from March, it has the same MAP readings except with no WG and 43.9 in 2nd.
The turbo fells good spins freely, no noticably play or hanging.  The actuator is new, hoses should be correct, if backwards it doesn't boost at all...wastegate reading doesn't do any shooting to 100% then down, it shoots from 0 to 54, drops a bit, then stay pretty constant until 2nd gear, halfway through 2nd gear, it slowly flutters up from 35 to 10 from 4000 to 4700 then it flats at 100

Lots of details yeah, anyways, on a seperate but similar topic, I have noticed from idle up until 3000 RPM, the TPS won't read over 36%, with the throttle at the floor, it basically flat lines at 36% from 1500 to 3000 at ~31-36%, it shoot from 0 to 31 off the bat, then just flatlines until then, is this boost ramp maps on the trans causing that or is that why my bottom end sucks so bad?  The stock chip does almost the same thing, but it kick up at 2500.  The stock chip also does that same WG fluttering in 2nd gear, but it flutters all the way to shift instead of flat lining and it only gets to ~56.

Wow sorry if it jumps all over and confuses anyone.  I dunno if it helps, but here is an export from a WOT run 1st and 2nd gear....I don't dare go faster than the top of 2nd..... http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/JeffMChip.csv

Yay for a PITA car :lol:

edit since I'm bored and already logged on, here is the entire datalog, it has cruising at low RPM/speed, idle, WOT, cruising freeway speeds....
http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/JeffMChip_Long.zip
Its a *.csv format as well, so Excel will be open it, or atleast mine can hell Notepad can open it, just not formated very well.....

Quote from: z284pwrWow, you don't run Datamaster? That suprised me actually....http://www.ttspowersystems.com/software/dm3.4.1/8f_Beta/8F-FULL.ZIP A whole 8 megs :p and very easy to learn

:roll: I can't believe it either, that the Datamaster is the only one out there to use :lol:  Actually most loggers have great features, the one I use has been modified to run a wideband feed so I can log actual air/fuel matched up with rpm and map or any other parameter, does the Datamaster do that yet :wink:

Quote from: z284pwrhow exactly do we check ohms of injectors?  We have always tried this and always failed at it or couldn't figure it out properly, never really had to...never had problems...we though.

I can't believe you don't run a volt/ohm meter/VOM :lol: just kidding you back again :P , seriously no biggy, $15 gets you a radio shack VOM that once you set it to the ohm scale (the horse shoe symbol) and once the injector connector is taken off, use the VOM probes to test resistance from one spade to the other spade of the injector.

Quote from: z284pwrAnyways, from the top......(snip).

Super excellent covering all the info, and what has been done 8) if only more people that came here for help were as thorough, but it takes practice 8)

Quote from: z284pwrTPS won't read over 36%, with the throttle at the floor, it basically flat lines at 36% from 1500 to 3000 at ~31-36%, it shoot from 0 to 31 off the bat, then just flatlines until then

Ummm, with all the super good info and what has been done and we are letting a TPS that will not go past 36% to be acceptable to run :shock:  :? DUDE, replace that damn thing and get some boost would you :lol:   Other than the computer never being told the throttle is never past 36% so fueling and timing would be off but the boost tables are based on TPS and RPM so, you are never going to go fast till replace that TPS!

Quote from: z284pwrYay for a PITA car :lol:

I think your car says the same of you running that TPS :P  

Talk to you once your stick your foot into that sensor :lol:

Jeff M

I woun't trust Datamaster TOO much. I still think the rpm scaling is wrong. It is a BETA after all. Though..datamaster does import Diacom data..so Datamaster could prob be exported into Diacom??

Quote from: TurboGTUI woun't trust Datamaster TOO much. I still think the rpm scaling is wrong. It is a BETA after all. Though..datamaster does import Diacom data..so Datamaster could prob be exported into Diacom??

Yea it offers a few good things to help but has been a "Beta" for a long time :roll:  Dataloggers have a hard time getting the info through correctly, many show values that are off scale, some offer better features than others, some too many features in their graphs to be useful.  Tech II is accurate but even after all the years that it has been out, price used on ebay is still around $500 to $1,000 :shock: but it does more than I could list here in a few hours :lol: to a ton of years and types of cars and trucks.

Jeff M

Quote from: Jeff M
Talk to you once your stick your foot into that sensor :lol:
Jeff M

Okay Jeff, some more for you to ponder :p now that the weather has finally cooperated, I didn't think a datalog with rain would be of much help....but anyways, here is what I have fixed and found...
Changed TPS, replaced ALL vacuum lines, all custom made jobs by me, and I moved the boost control solenoid, it looks SO much better not chillin on the intake :lol:
Now for what the datalog shows, yay, more confusion....anyways, TPS is now reading 5.1% at idle, joy....so now everytime I put it in drive from park it almost dies....now for the TPS issue again.  It appears to be "better" It made it to 56% by 1300 RPM, and after that, it shoots to 100%, yay, however, this was from a stop, from a roll, well, yeah, now I'm all confused....first I did just a run in just 2nd gear, started at about 2100 RPM, it made a curve up to 88% by 2600 but didn't hit 100% until 3300 RPM.  Boost seemed to be fine, I think?  Wastegate shot up to 54% at 2300 RPM then started dropping at 2700, boost ramp maps?  Oh then MAP toped out at 182.2 at 3500 RPM, and started dying even though the WGDC started rising as it was falling.  WGDC hit 100% and Map finally dropped to 135 by 5200.
Skipping ahead to the stand still launch....very interested, like i said TPS maxed out at 1300 RPM, Map and RPM curve up together, WGDC shoots to and maxes to 100% at 4600 RPM, oh, and MAP peaked at 161 *first gear*, why so much lower?

Okay, I'll stop now, I will mention the timing advance difference was interested, it was at like 9* at 181 MAP and 17 at 161 MAP.  I will also mention that there was 0 knock counts and it didn't really retard timing either?

Yay, datalogs are fun...but at the same time they aren't because they reveal all the problems :P oh well, cruise around time it is really nice now that I fixed the TV cable....

Oh yeah, for anyone interested, I posted the datalogs again....
http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/Chip2.csv
http://home.earthlink.net/~z284pwr/grand_prix/chip2.uni

I think thats all for now, yes I know my car is broken.... :shock:

Hey good to hear back from you, been dying waiting to know what you found next :lol: .

Yea something is not right, but right now the boost levels need to be ignored :!: , boost will not be right no matter what till the TPS is fixed!  As for No Knock, good to hear that again :) , and when you bounced off some abnormally high boost and did not knock, that proved the lower timing working to help protect you.  Some don?t like the timing numbers up there but if at 13 to 15 psi there is enough taken out to help save the engine, well then they are good to have in there!  Also every engine wants something different, aluminums want less timing then iron and that is good from a standpoint of making peak cylinder pressure during the 20 degrees ATC that is key.  Combustion chamber design, amount of swirl or tumble, many factors dictate the best timing and it can vary from one turbo engine wanting 20 degrees at 10psi and another only wanting 10 degrees of spark advance at 10 psi.

TPS TEST:
Anyways, back to the TPS, something else must be whacked, the TPS should rise at the same time as your throttle/foot, no delays or such things.  And a strong suggestion here, no need to drive to test the TPS, just turn the ignition key to ?On? (engine off/not started) then log on with your scanner and watch your TPS while you exercise your foot :wink: .  The values you should see are 0% TPS with your foot off the throttle, 1% is ok but we still want 0%.  Move your foot down very slowly, the TPS should increase as smoothly as your foot, never stopping or jumping unless your foot did.  It should show 100% TPS a little before you hit the throttle to the floor, if you cannot get these types of readings, then more work needs to be done in this area until it does work this way or you will not boost or run proper!!

Problems with TPS; Some TPS come with slotted mounting holes so you can adjust them to achieve 0% TPS with the throttle close, see if you have slots and if so, watch your logger while you loosen the screws and turn the TPS till you get 0% TPS showing up on your screen.  If this is a new sensor (new can be bad too) then check the wires going into the connector there, check for loose or corroded or broken connections or insulation off/bare wires exposed.  Also follow the wires for the TPS as far as you can looking for a pinch or any areas of damage.  If nothing is found then time to check for it getting the 5 volt signal it needs, have to look into my books to find which wire but will wait until you let me know how the results from the TPS TEST came out?

Jeff M

Okay, TPS Results -
TPS is NON-SLOTTED, we have 2 non slotted *one on the car* and two that are slotted.  Anyways, I verified and retracted the idle screw adjustment all the way out, so it wasn't even touching, and could only get it down to 3% TPS, there were no bumps or anything and it smoothed up, however, it only registered 4.22 volts at 100% TPS.  I loosened the bolts and got it down to 1.6% TPS closed, but when I tightened them back up they went up to the ~3.5% TPS.

That was fast(er) :D   So the slotted ones you have are used?  I would try one, 2% and above will throw you into a totally different area of the chip not really setup for idle, decel and all that.  This too to see if you can get your readings down at all with a slotted one.  

Also try this, unhook your TV Cable, Throttle Cable and Cruise Control Cable and see if TPS goes back down to 0%.  If it does one of them is hanging things up.

A part here that has not been disclosed is your problems with the TPS sensor you started with, did you have smooth TPS% as you moved the throttle or not, and now with a new sensor do you have smooth raise of TPS with your foot????  I am checking here that we have made progress as it matters for other reasons as we keep messing with a "TPS" to get this last idle/closed throttle to 0%.

On a side note, the 100% WGDC with boost dropping as rpms climb could be a fouled cat.

Jeff M