Quote from: TookyCat
There is one last thing to mention regarding our fueling.  I did say there is no chip available to handle larger injectors.  But I also need to mention there is ALSO no chip available that can add fuel over 15 PSI!  Our ECM is speed-density which means it uses the MAP sensor to determine the current engine air flow (as opposed to a MAF (Mass air Flow meter)).  However our stock MAP sensor is only 2-BAR.  Meaning it can read 1 BAR of vacuum, and 1 BAR of boost.  In other words after 14.7 PSI (1 BAR) Boost, the ECM is flying blind and doesn't have any idea if you are at 16 PSI or 25 PSI and it can't possibly add the respective amount of additional fuel.  GM made a 3 BAR MAP sensor for the boost gauge on the MAF-equipped 1989 Turbo Trans Am which had a 16.5-PSI stock boost level, but it's not as simple as plugging in the MAP sensor into your TGP and running.  Your chip has to be TOTALLY recalibrated to read the 3 BAR MAP sensor AND custom Motorola assembly code would need to be implemented.  As far as I know, there is only 1 person to have accomplished this and it was Brian Green only for the '749 Syclone/Typhoon/TurboSunbird/GrandAm/Calais/Quad4 ECM.  This is one of the most difficult barriers we will need to surpass.  The Buick 3.8 Turbo V6 motor doesn't have this issue because it uses Mass Air.  The modified Syclone/Typhoons all run 3-Bar MAP and 3-Bar chip as some of the first bolt-ons, and there aren't really any other Speed-density (MAP) turbo GM motors out there that people are modifying other than the ones I've listed.  The way I plan on addressing this problem is most likely to use a fuel-cut-defeater and alcohol injection on stock injectors, which is a very crude and imprecise fueling system, but it has performed very well....

are you talking about running an adjustable overboost eliminater set to 14.7 PSI (ziener diode) as a fuel cut defeater?  then use the alcohol injection with high octane for +15 PSI right?  what method of wastegate control would you use?  ECM controlled, grainger valve or something fancy?

btw, very nice post :)
joshua

1.)

• Need bigger turbo . ..35lbs-45lbs of air flow..2.5 and higher pressure ratio. Personaly..I am getting one of my Turbo ford t3s and upgrading it to a t4 compressor (.50a/r)and a new gen biased turbine on the .63 turbine hausing.
  2.) [ ] Need T3 style exhaust crossover flange Oh shop around muflershops catologs..and stainless bellows to boot...uh $150 should get supplies for it.
  3.) [ ] Need T3 adaptable downpipe flange Also on the T3 DP and such....Have you heard of the SAAB or Volvo turbo T3...They have the Swingvalve readdy for a good swap to a better turbo. They are verry compact. All you need to do is run a pipe right off the back.
  
  4.)
• Need O2 sensor relocated  Anywhere close to the turbine on the DP
  5.)
• Need turbo oil/water plumbing to fit new turbo Oh yea...Call Classic Tube or make your own with tools off JC whitny...and silicone hoses for watter. Hydrolic hose for oil return.
  6.) [ ] Need 3-Bar MAP sensor and respective 3-Bar programmed chip code OK...this is a big one.Eathier aftermarket ecm or someone crack the code to use 3bar or modify Sy/Ty ecm to run on TGP.
  7.)
• Need high octane fuel Eh ..make your own or buy..but some so called octane raisers rott stock fuel componets..be careful
  8.)
• Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost Uh...$$$$...I'll just use my cheap $35 A/F monitor with new stock O2 and monitor Knock signal with ALDL monitor.9.)
  [ ] Need 4T60 automatic transmission parts sufficient to handle the power Drop in a race prepped 4t65...or swap to a race preped 3t40...no OD to fry.
  10.) [ ] Need traction to utilize increased power. High presure springs on back, AA traction rating tires...G-force, Kumos., EBC moded for better launch.
  New...11.) Forged pistons, 190K psi hardware, Oring for eather Copper or stock gasket. (high cylinder presures come too u know)
  Also ...lets not forget...CFM ...and Lbs per minute of air...not PSI.
  
  Also....jeff has a 3gen top end...not 2nd gen...We really need help on the exhaust ports anyway....so porting it will still help.

Quote from: TurboGTU8.)

• Need wideband O2 to safely run high boost Uh...$$$$...I'll just use my cheap $35 A/F monitor with new stock O2 and monitor Knock signal with ALDL monitor.

Thus far on my WB02 I have spent $28, all I have left is my soldering equipment, wire, and a box to hold it in.  (All cheap, easy to obtain)  Then an o2 sensor ~$150, so I will be less than ~$210 for the entire thing.  As far as a $35 A/F monitor goes, you might as well stick that money in your ear.  The stock o2 sensor can only read 14.7:1 accurately.  Above and below that it guesses, that's why the thing always bounces rich-lean-rich-lean.  It knows it's lean but not how far lean, so it adds fuel until it sees rich then cuts fuel tell it see's lean, etc, etc, etc.  You get the picture.  Try and tune an ECM like that.   :evil:

hey turboGTU    ..35lbs-45lbs of air flow..2.5 and higher pressure ratio. .......what the HECk is pressure ratio?      please tell me.................PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE I NEED TO KNOW !!!!!!!   AND HOW CAN I CHANGE IT??????????????? and what do we have stock?

I got this from http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_glossary.shtml
Pressure Ratio: The ratio of outlet pressure over inlet pressure, in absolute pressure values.

                 Pa + Po
           PR = ---------
                   Pa

           Pa = inlet (ambient) pressure
           Po = outlet pressureIf you are at an ambient pressure of 13.5 psi (about 700 m ASL *above sea level*) and your boost is 19 psig *psi gauge*:

                 13.5 + 19
           PR = -----------
                    13.5

              = 2.41Note that an absolute boost level (i.e., one that is altitude adjusted) has a widely varying pressure ratio, depending on the ambient pressure (which depends strongly on altitude).

*Note also that the outlet pressure of the compressor is often quite a bit higher than the pressure measured in the intake manifold, due to intercooler and plumbing constrictions.

Finally, note that pressure ratio is an intermediate value, and is not particularly important in power calculations. Density ratio is the number that actually tells us how much air the engine can consume so is the factor you must consider when determining system performance (PR, along with a compressor map, should be used to determine appropriate sizing of the turbocharger, not for calculating resulting HP).

Ok Ok...I got my wires twisted...LOL.
So its Density ratio...and no entirely pressure ratio.
I assume gerrett uses 14.7 (sea level) or what not on their pressure ratio.

And...Density ratio is a number computed from pressure ratio, compressor efficiency (look at compressor maps)and intercooler efficiency(depends on IC) to provide the actual increase in pressure realized in the cylinder as a product of the compressor system.
And on the WBO2... where did you get your pc board? Lettmeguessss...the Honda WB oxygen sensor....and I also thought WBO2s plugged into a a/f meter without a "box"....or is this only for the ecm.

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!.











except now i know i cant change it  :(  :(  :(   so sad............so much heartache............ if only i could change it ........it makes a HUUUUUUUUGE dif......go to the desktop dyno and type in  PR of 1......then type in 7 and see what happens........and goin from 1.8 to 3 would go from 250hp to 350!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


but thanks for the site.   and if anybody has tech sites like that that they want to share please do so ....perhaps we should make a new post in the appropriate forum but i think we need to post sites so that we can all share everythnig we know and make the whole community better

Quote from: TurboGTUAnd on the WBO2... where did you get your pc board? Lettmeguessss...the Honda WB oxygen sensor....and I also thought WBO2s plugged into a a/f meter without a "box"....or is this only for the ecm.

Here is where all the info is on the project.  The board is not some generic board.  It is made explicitly for the project, and is $5.  Yes, you heard me right.  The complete part kit is $16.  Again, yes, you heard me right.   But, it's hard to get ahold of the guy that makes them.  I put in a request for the boards about 3 months ago and he just now got back to me, but he has the stuff and is shipping now.  So if anyone's interested, I suggest you goto the site above and contact him.  FWIW, get two boards, that way if you screw one up, you have another.  It also makes it easy to see where everything is supposed to go as you start putting stuff on, locations start getting covered up.  And you are correct it is based on the Honduh 1.5 VTEC o2 sensor.  As far as the last question about the box, I don't really understand.  An A/F meter will hook up w/o a "box", it uses reference voltage from the sensor.  The only way a WB o2, will hook up is w/ multiple inputs for the sensor.  (Plus it takes a controller to make heads or tales of what's coming down the stream.)  If I didn't understand your question, sorry reword it for us dummy's.  :wink: HTH.

Quote from: TookyCatThe way I plan on addressing this problem is most likely to use a fuel-cut-defeater

hrmmm...fuel cut defeater...
joshua

ok as for the tiny tb i was told that with little to know fab you can use a lt1 i havent checked it out yet so take it as hearsay and on the bigger turbo if you want to make a big jump in power as im doing im going to go with svo 36# injectors and a t3/t4 hybrid a t04b and a extural wast gate im going to a tial 50mm and routing the dump to the fender as seen on super street car challenge by derick massie a guy i know here in mason on a turbo teg typeR im dumpin be hind the wheel insted of the front

http://www.jbodyperformance.com/fdptb.html

Well there's 62mm worth of Throttle body for ya.
$251 Shipped (U.S. Dollars)

http://www.turbosaturns.net/articles/turbo_compressor_maps_2.html
thats another useful site.

This article all seems to revolve on density ratio...the power making formula. The formulas seem verry similar to what the TGP would run...but I don't know about the efficiency of the t25 on the tgp. I will try to plug in numbers latter with a supper 60 t3 just to see what happens...along with the stock IC....if any one can guess its cooling efficiancy.???

Air Temperature

Air temperature is an important variable because as the temperature increases the volume of air also increases. The following equation solves for ideal temperature rise, which is the temperature rise equivalent to the amount of work it takes to compress the air. Simply stated, the more you compress air (raise boost) the more the air becomes heated.

Equation
T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283

Variables
T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283 (Ideal turbo outlet temperture)
T1 = oF + 460 (Turbo inlet temperature)
P1 = 14.7psi (Turbo inlet pressure = 1 atm absolute)
P2 = P1 + desired boost (Turbo outlet pressure)

First, we need to solve for T1
T1 = oF + 460

In this example we will assume that the inlet temperature, which can also be interpreted as ambient temperature, is 80? F. Solving for T1 we get the following equation:
T1 = 80 + 460 = 540

Next, we need to solve for P2

P2 = P1 + desired boost

In this example we will assume a desired boost of 10psi.

24.7 = 14.7 + 10

The turbo's outlet pressure equals 24.7psi
We now have all the variables needed to solve for T2.

T2 = T1 (P2 / P1 )0.283

Variables
T1 = 540
P1 = 14.7
P2 = 24.7

Solving for T2

T2 = 540 (24.7 / 14.7 )0.283 = 625.43

Then take the answer for T2 and subtract 460 from it

625.43 ? 460 = 165.43? F

The ideal turbo outlet temperature equals 165.43? F, which is a raise in temperature of 85.43? F over the assumed starting inlet temperature of 80? F. Giving us a ideal outlet temperature rise of 85.43? F. (165.43 ? 80 = 85.43)


Adiabatic Efficiency

We have solved for the ideal outlet temperature of the turbo, which assumes 100% adiabatic efficiency (AE). At 100% AE there is no loss or gain of heat from the turbine but in the real world AE's normally run between 60-75% and we need to compensate for this. The following equation allows us to compensate for a less than perfect AE.

Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise / AE = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise

The basic plots diagramed in the previous article Deciphering turbo compressor maps gives us a good idea of which efficiencies the turbo will spend most of it?s time. In the image below we see two points located within the 74% range and one point in the 70% range. I decided to take the average of the three points (74 + 74 + 70 / 3 = 73) and use that as my compensated AE value. If we assume that the compressor has an AE of 73% then the outlet temperature will be 27% higher than the ideal outlet temperature (100 ? 73 = 27). Again the equation is:

Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise / AE = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise

Substituting our numbers in we get:
85.43 / .73 = 117.02? F

117.02? F is the Actual Outlet Temperature Rise, which once added to the inlet temperature (80? F) gives us the actual outlet temperature.

80 + 117.02 = 197.02? F

197.02? F is the actual outlet temperature of the turbo without using an intercooler.


Air Density Ratio

Air temperature and adiabatic efficiency have a profound effect on the air density ratio.
As the air is heated it expands, increasing its volume, but becoming less dense. The formula for solving the air's density ratio is located below.

(T1 / [T1 + Actual Outlet Temperature Rise]) x (P2 / P1) = Air Density Ratio

Plugging our numbers into the formula we get:

(540 / [540 + 197.02]) x (24.7 / 14.7) = Air Density Ratio

Stepping through the math:

(540 / 737.02) x (24.7 / 14.7) = 1.23

1.23 is the Air Density Ratio

To find out the difference in volume the heated air makes we need to compare the turbo's inlet airflow with the outlet airflow. Taking all of the variables into account we will now be able to find the turbo's actual outlet airflow in CFM by using the following equation.

Turbo Outlet CFM* x Density Ratio = Actual Outlet CFM

171.16 x 1.23 = 210.53 CFM
Outlet CFM* is the value taken from the article Deciphering turbo compressor maps.

Reviewing the first article Deciphering turbo compressor maps we see that the value of 19.84 lbs/min was given for an engine running 10psi of boost without correcting for any variables. Using the corrected formula above we find that the same 10psi yields 14.53 lbs/min, which represents a difference of 27%. This is a sizable drop in airflow from theoretical (the first article) to the more accurate (this article).

Nevertheless, the key to finding the turbo best suited for your application is to make sure that the airflow and pressure ratios intersect at a flow value no less than 60%. Also, there will most likely be several compressor maps that fit your application if this is the case it is advisable that you pick the compressor that has the lowest surge air flow limit. This will insure that you have the widest range of performance at that boost. Armed with this additional information you should be able to better calculate your turbo?s actual airflow numbers.


*Boost pressure will be the absolute value, which is 1+ what you are boosting. For example if your are boosting .7 bar add a 1 before you insert the value into the equation. By adding 1 you are compensating for the 1 bar of standard atmosphere pre-boost.

Converting CFM to lbs/min
210.53 x 0.069 = 14.53

Also on the WBO2...the box I was reffering to was the unit itself you made...that I need a pc board for. You know....with the stock O2 or Limbada "spelling" O2...the A/F meter and ecm plug into it directly...with nothing in between....but with a WBO2...you need a box.

And boost cut eliminator....the easyest is reprogramming your chip..I raised mine to 14.3. almost max for the 2bar...other methods are verry crude to your engine. I've also eliminated boost cut on top speed and top speed itself. With chip programming...you can even run more timming for race gas or adjust timming for traction out of the hole. I'm just about ready to try my chip.

I've been doing a lot more research on this lately, since I sold the Supra project and went full bore on the TGP. I've been doing a lot with the chip, and have realized that our ECM is a limiting factor in the whole power equation. Has anyone thought of going stand alone? I use the AEM EMS in my DSM, and it's incredible! I know that was a near bolt in version, but they have universal versions as ell, and can be tuned for anything. I would think with a bit of wiring(which would be a lot easier than rewriting the code for a 3-bar MAP), you could get one in. Numerous companies make them, Haltech and AEM are my fav so far.

Also, as far as the tranny goes, I was having my trans guy do some research. It seems that the 4t60 shares some common design with the 4t65 as well as possibly the corvette trans? He wasnt completely sure on that, and as soon as my Vette guy is back I'll colaborate with him.

As far as the PMIII goes, I would actually recommend doing the vacuum assist brake conversion. Think about it, even after all that work, and replacing all the lines, it would STILL cost less than the PMIII replacement. Besides that, it will give us more room, and allow for easier maintenance.

Quote from: maximageAs far as the PMIII goes, I would actually recommend doing the vacuum assist brake conversion. Think about it, even after all that work, and replacing all the lines, it would STILL cost less than the PMIII replacement. Besides that, it will give us more room, and allow for easier maintenance.

As I have asked before...what year/models have the vacuum assist that is direct bolt? 8)

Even if it's not a direct bolt on, the little bit of fab required could save a lot of future headaches. Besides, with more power we are going to want better braking, and so far what I have found is VERY inadequate.

What about a newer style ABS conversion?  Those are a hell of a lot more reliable than ours, cheaper, brake much better, and you wouldn't have to loose the ABS (though I know some wouldn't mind it).